TopCat
Putin fanboy
To be fair I was referring to the isis whinger .
British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'
- Thread starter hipipol
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Athos
Well-Known Member
I'm not the one making a claim that requires evidence; I'm saying we don't know what happened, because we've not seen the evidence.
Of course (some of) her family claim to be convinced of her innocence. But their feelings have little probative value unless they can provide some evidence. I've not seen it. Have you?
I'm not saying she wasn't groomed; I'm saying we don't know she was. The repeated assertions that she was are disingenuous.
maomao
普費斯
And I'm saying if someone who said they were groomed into sex workat the age of fifteen by a group of people who we know were targeting people like her at that time, would you be on here saying the same thing?
Athos
Well-Known Member
Apart from anything else, the analogy is weak because, as far as I'm aware, Begum herself hasn't made such a claim.
But, to answer your question, if someone has a clear potential ulterior motive for making such a claim e.g. they were relying on it as a defence to their own crimes, I wouldn't necessarily accept it at face value - it'd require proper investigation.
If Ghislaine Maxwell now said that Epstein abused and controlled her, forcing her into recruiting girls for him to abuse, would you just accept that uncritically, and let her walk?
maomao
普費斯
Maxwell's never claimed this to my knowledge but one of the claimants against Epstein says that as well as being sexually assaulted while a minor she was coerced into recruiting other girls for Epstein to abuse. Do you think US prosecutors should be more critical and consider prosecuting her for people trafficking?
Athos
Well-Known Member
If there's evidence that she trafficked girls to be abused, that should be investigated. But, if there's evidence that she was coerced into doing so, she shouldn't be prosecuted.
Which is broadly the same as I think about Begum. If there's evidence that she was groomed, brainwashed, controlled, and prevented from leaving, then, of course, that's potentially wholly exculpatory.
But, absent any such evidence, the prima facie case is that she participated in a brutal regime that raped, tortured, and murdered on a massive scale.
What I take issue with is people defending her on the basis she was groomed, without any evidence that happened.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Perhaps it's something that should be tested in a court, you know, those places where evidence is considered and weighed
maomao
普費斯
There's plenty of witness evidence of her radicalisation and grooming. You're demanding something that can't exist.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, I've said from the outset that she should stand trial where she is.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Where?
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
And I suppose that you believe the local authorities there have the means and desire to enquire into what has brought her to her present plight
maomao
普費斯
In the papers. And also her own words. I can't imagine you dismissing the words of someone who claimed to have been groomed in any other circumstance.
Athos
Well-Known Member
On the means point, I think it's incumbent on the UK (and other countries) to provide material assistance to ensure fair trials trials are possible locally.
If such evidence exists here, there's no reason it can't be shared with judicial authorities overseas.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Can you point me to it specifically, please?
maomao
普費斯
Mail on Sunday, not hard to find. Her father also says the police told him that she was recruited by two adult women.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Which piece, particularly? Please provide a link (broken if you prefer).
maomao
普費斯
Ffs. Do they not have Google in the countryside. I was carrying shopping:
Britain's jihadi bride groomer
Sharmeena Begum (pictured) became one of the youngest British teenagers to join ISIS when she fled from her home in East London and travelled to Syria last December aged 15.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Ffs. Do they not have Google in the countryside. I was carrying shopping:
Britain's jihadi bride groomer
Sharmeena Begum (pictured) became one of the youngest British teenagers to join ISIS when she fled from her home in East London and travelled to Syria last December aged 15.www.dailymail.co.uk
That article is primarily about the alleged recruitment of a different girl, Sharmeena Begum, by the women's wing of the IFE, known as the 'Sisters Forum'.
Insofar as it touches on Shamina, it quotes her family as saying:
'Our daughters may have attended the East London Mosque to pray, but to our knowledge have never been associated or a part of the Islamic Forum of Europe.
'The Mosque and even the IFE have a strong track record of speaking out against and condemning extremism, this is well known within our community.'
In any event, the article mostly speculation; it certainly doesn't contain any witness evidence that Shamina was groomed.
maomao
普費斯
It directly alleges that Sharmeena groomed Shamina. I'm not sure why you needed to bold that name, were you confused?
Athos
Well-Known Member
Do you understand the difference between an allegation and evidence?
maomao
普費斯
Yes. Do you understand how evidence works?
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes. Do you have any?
Because, so far, your 'evidence' that "there was purposefully coercive adult involvement in persuading her to go" is a completely unsupported allegation in the Mail on Sunday that she was recruited by her friend, another 15 year old girl.
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maomao
普費斯
I don't have anything that you will find acceptable because you are demanding the kind of evidence that tends to be unsubstantiated before court appearances but this is not a courtroom and you are not a judge. There are many articles that make similar allegations on the basis of things people have told journalists. That's more evidence than you have for your position that a child can make the series of decisions she did without adult coercion.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I'm quite open to the idea of being persuaded. It's just that you've not shown me any evidence; merely press speculation. (And, to be clear, I'm not insisting on incontrovertible proof that would satisfy a court, just some - any! - prima facie evidence.)
You've not been able to point to a single witness or document that supports your claim that "there was purposefully coercive adult involvement in persuading her to go." (Though I note you're now appearing to suggest it was her 15 year old friend who recruited her.)
The stuff people have told the papers is her family and supporters repeating the allegation she was groomed; that's not evidence that she was. (Though, in any event, they don't even make any claim of grooming in the only article you quoted!)
I've not made any assertions, so there's nothing for which I should provide evidence. My case isn't that she wasn't groomed; but that I've seen no evidence that she was.
Despite all your bluster, you've not been able to point to any.
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maomao
普費斯
Because you're insisting that 'evidence' can only refer to the standard of evidence admissable in court.
I'd say that her father saying that he was told by police that there was adult involvement and the police at no point denying this, evidence that there was adult involvement. That doesn't mean I would go to court with this evidence. Meanwhile you have no evidence of any kind for your proposition.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I'm not referring to admissible evidence. I'd be happy with any evidence. But allegations by people who aren't witnesses isn't evidence.
I've not seen any evidence that he father was told that by the police. Can you provide a link, please?
I've not got a 'proposition' beyond the fact that I've not seen evidence of grooming!
maomao
普費斯
Google it, sealion. Her father has said that to several national papers.
Athos
Well-Known Member
I can't find it. Can you link to it, please?
maomao
普費斯
Athos
Well-Known Member
That'll be a "no, I can't" then.
Curious that you keep referring to all this freely available evidence, but, when pushed, you can't provide it.
And the attempted deflection via a bad faith accusation of 'sealioning' is risible, given the difficulty of finding any reports of her father saying what you claim.
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