British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[RedRedRose]

For those arguing for her return, did you listen to the audio interview posted previously?
She didn’t seem to give a fuck about decomposing heads by the roadside. Not quite the person I’d want to be rescuing from a tight spot.

 

[SpookyFrank]

I'm not the one making a claim that requires evidence; I'm saying we don't know what happened, because we've not seen the evidence.

Of course (some of) her family claim to be convinced of her innocence. But their feelings have little probative value unless they can provide some evidence. I've not seen it. Have you?

I'm not saying she wasn't groomed; I'm saying we don't know she was. The repeated assertions that she was are disingenuous.

This is all very lawyerish stuff. No it's not outside the realm of possibility that this person, aged 15 and apparently not very bright, organised a trip to Syria by herself and made contact with IS off her own back based solely on what she'd seen on youtube or whatever. But if you factor in any prior knowledge of how young people behave, and of how cults and fundamentalists operate, and add in the known information pertinent to this case, then you see it's a possibility only in the narrowest, most technical sense of the word.

The world is not a court room. We cannot discount what is overwhelmingly likely to have been the case because of a mathematically non-zero probability. And if Begum was groomed or recruited by people in the UK, she could be a key source of information that could get her recruiters locked away forever. That outcome would represent the only possible 'good' to come out of all this.

 

[Athos]

This is all very lawyerish stuff. No it's not outside the realm of possibility that this person, aged 15 and apparently not very bright, organised a trip to Syria by herself and made contact with IS off her own back based solely on what she'd seen on youtube or whatever. But if you factor in any prior knowledge of how young people behave, and of how cults and fundamentalists operate, and add in the known information pertinent to this case, then you see it's a possibility only in the narrowest, most technical sense of the word.

The world is not a court room. We cannot discount what is overwhelmingly likely to have been the case because of a mathematically non-zero probability. And if Begum was groomed or recruited by people in the UK, she could be a key source of information that could get her recruiters locked away forever. That outcome would represent the only possible 'good' to come out of all this.

There's a lot of ground between the idea that she organised it all herself, completely unaided (which I accept is inherently unlikely), and being coerced into going (which was the claim).

But, even then, I've always accepted that she may have been coerced. We just don't know. If people want to say they have a hunch that happened, that's cool. But don't insist it did and claim there's evidence of that if you can't point to it.

 

[Spymaster]

And if Begum was groomed or recruited by people in the UK, she could be a key source of information that could get her recruiters locked away forever. That outcome would represent the only possible 'good' to come out of all this.

The security services would almost certainly have had her returned to the UK for interrogation or found another way to interview her if they thought she could provide any useful information. That suggests that they either don't think she can, or they've sent people there to question her on the quiet.

 

[Athos]

The security services would almost certainly have had her returned to the UK for interrogation or found another way to interview her if they thought she could provide any useful information. That suggests that they either don't think she can, or they've sent people there to question her on the quiet.

Or that potential benefits of her return are outweighed by the risks.

 

[Spymaster]

Or that potential benefits of her return are outweighed by the risks.

Given the potential intelligence goldmines that they are I'd thoroughly expect those camps to infiltrated and regularly visited by spooks of all flavours.

 

[maomao]

There's a lot of ground between the idea that she organised it all herself, completely unaided (which I accept is inherently unlikely), and being coerced into going (which was the claim).

But, even then, I've always accepted that she may have been coerced. But we don't know. If people want to say they have a hunch that happened, that's cool. But don't insist it did and claim there's evidence of that if you can't point to it.

Maya Foa who runs a charity working in the Syrian camps and has spent time there says she was trafficked. The nature of her evidence means she's unable to put names, times and places in this article. What evidence do you have that she is lying or wrong?

Shamima Begum is a victim of trafficking – and the UK should treat her as such | Maya Foa

Depriving someone of their citizenship is easier when they have been reduced to a caricature, says Maya Foa, director of the human rights charity Reprieve

www.theguardian.com

 

[maomao]

For those arguing for her return, did you listen to the audio interview posted previously?
She didn’t seem to give a fuck about decomposing heads by the roadside. Not quite the person I’d want to be rescuing from a tight spot.

Do you know what ptsd is?

 

[Athos]

Maya Foa who runs a charity working in the Syrian camps and has spent time there says she was trafficked. The nature of her evidence means she's unable to put names, times and places in this article. What evidence do you have that she is lying or wrong?

Shamima Begum is a victim of trafficking – and the UK should treat her as such | Maya Foa

Depriving someone of their citizenship is easier when they have been reduced to a caricature, says Maya Foa, director of the human rights charity Reprieve

www.theguardian.com

She doesn't offer any evidence about Begum; she merely makes an unsupported claim. It may or may not be true.

 

[Spymaster]

Maya Foa who runs a charity working in the Syrian camps and has spent time there says she was trafficked. The nature of her evidence means she's unable to put names, times and places in this article. What evidence do you have that she is lying or wrong?

Shamima Begum is a victim of trafficking – and the UK should treat her as such | Maya Foa

Depriving someone of their citizenship is easier when they have been reduced to a caricature, says Maya Foa, director of the human rights charity Reprieve

www.theguardian.com

That's just an opinion piece by someone with a deep agenda.

 

[maomao]

That's just an opinion piece by someone with a deep agenda.

She obviously has an agenda, she works for a human rights charity. What is 'deep' about it?

 

[Spymaster]

She obviously has an agenda, she works for a human rights charity. What is 'deep' about it?

The fact that she has more reason than most to make such claims.

 

[bmd]

Given that most people, all of them perhaps, on this thread will feel zero impact of her return, what's the problem with it? My problem with it is that it feels like we would be saying that you can go off and fully support our enemies and then when that's no longer your thing then you can come back here and, possibly, begin recruiting more 15 year old girls for the ISIS nonces. I get that we would be sacrificing her if we did this and my god she has had a shit life since being there but I guess my concern lies with the future Shamimas.

 

[maomao]

The fact that she has more reason than most to make such claims.

No, you're using the word 'deep' to imply there is something sinister or unpleasant about her agenda.

 

[Spymaster]

No, you're using the word 'deep' to imply there is something sinister or unpleasant about her agenda.

No I wasn't because I don't think that. I was using it to imply exactly what I said above. Foa is a HR lawyer directly campaining for the return of Camp Roj detainees. Her opinions are about as biased as you're likely to find on the subject.

 

[maomao]

No I wasn't because I don't think that. I was using it to imply exactly what I said above. Foa is a HR lawyer directly campaining for the return of Camp Roj detainees. Her opinions are about as biased as you're likely to find on the subject.

Do you think human rights lawyers are a bad thing then?

 

[Spymaster]

Do you think human rights lawyers are a bad thing then?

No.

 

[Pickman's model]

For those arguing for her return, did you listen to the audio interview posted previously?
She didn’t seem to give a fuck about decomposing heads by the roadside. Not quite the person I’d want to be rescuing from a tight spot.

If this is your standard for who gets to come back to blighty then there's British soldiers who'd have been left in eg Malaya where they did things which make not being fussed about decomposing heads by the road look really trivial as in the spoilered image below showing a British soldier holding severed heads as trophies

Spoiler

 

[Red Cat]

It directly alleges that Sharmeena groomed Shamina. I'm not sure why you needed to bold that name, were you confused?

I feel I have more understanding of Sharmeena and the impact of her mother's death on her and her family - she was clearly a very vulnerable young person at that time. I don't think a girl as vulnerable as Sharmeena was in a position to groom another, but their relationship might highlight the dynamics of freindships and the power of groups in influencing us. In that respect, it might not make a great deal of sense to look at Shamina in isolaton, however, I don't think we have much information on her to help beyond the most superficial understanding. Because of her age and what we know about radicalisation and the dynamics of grooming, we might assume that the latter occurred, but we have no evidence of how it took place and what in particular might have made Shamina Begum more vulnerable to it than other adolescent girls. If her history is out there, I haven't come across it, and I have looked.

As an example, in work, if I make a referral to the CSE service, I need evidence about makes the child vulnerable, their early childhood, their relationships with parents/carers/other adults, is there alcohol or drug use at home, or DV, difficulties at school and with peers, are there mental health difficulties, developmental trauma, fetal alcohol syndrome, what services have been and are involved, as well as dates/times of incidents and names were possible. This kind of information is missing, I don't feel we know anything about her at all.

 

[Pickman's model]

I feel I have more understanding of Sharmeena and the impact of her mother's death on her and her family - she was clearly a very vulnerable young person at that time. I don't think a girl as vulnerable as Sharmeena was in a position to groom another, but their relationship might highlight the dynamics of freindships and the power of groups in influencing us. In that respect, it might not make a great deal of sense to look at Shamina in isolaton, however, I don't think we have much information on her to help beyond the most superficial understanding. Because of her age and what we know about radicalisation and the dynamics of grooming, we might assume that the latter occurred, but we have no evidence of how it took place and what in particular might have made Shamina Begum more vulnerable to it than other adolescent girls. If her history is out there, I haven't come across it, and I have looked.

As an example, in work, if I make a referral to the CSE service, I need evidence about makes the child vulnerable, their early childhood, their relationships with parents/carers/other adults, is there alcohol or drug use at home, or DV, difficulties at school and with peers, are there mental health difficulties, developmental trauma, fetal alcohol syndrome, what services have been and are involved, as well as dates/times of incidents and names were possible. This kind of information is missing, I don't feel we know anything about her at all.

Yes, you're saying there needs to be evidence of vulnerability involving encounters with a range of institutions and tbh I can't help thinking that there's a great load of vulnerability you'd be missing. Vulnerable means exposed to the possibility of harm to me but to you it seems to mean someone who has been harmed.

 

[Red Cat]

Yes, you're saying there needs to be evidence of vulnerability involving encounters with a range of institutions and tbh I can't help thinking that there's a great load of vulnerability you'd be missing. Vulnerable means exposed to the possibility of harm to me but to you it seems to mean someone who has been harmed.

Well, not quite, although reading back I can see how it might read in that way. Of course there are vulnerable or potentially vulnerable people who don't come into contact with services. I was using it as an example of the kind of information that might guide an informed understanding of what took place for this particular person. That doesn't mean it's not there, but it doesn't seem to be in the public domain.

 

[Athos]

I don't think a girl as vulnerable as Sharmeena was in a position to groom another...

But it must be true, it's in the Mail on Sunday!

Because of her age and what we know about radicalisation and the dynamics of grooming, we might assume that the latter occurred, but we have no evidence of how it took place...

Never mind 'how', we have no evidence that it did take place at all!

And I'm not convinced we know enough about either her or the psychological processes of joining such organisations to even make that assumption with a lot of confidence.

 

[bimble]

Nearly 5,000 posts and half of them speculating on unknowable stuff about this woman, i find it quite creepy.

 

[Spymaster]

Nearly 5,000 posts and half of them speculating on unknowable stuff about this woman, i find it quite creepy.

Most of them concern what we do know about her, tbf.

 

[maomao]

Nearly 5,000 posts and half of them speculating on unknowable stuff about this woman, i find it quite creepy.

There's a few dozen that are just fantasies about killing her tbh.

 

[Athos]

Nearly 5,000 posts and half of them speculating on unknowable stuff about this woman, i find it quite creepy.

Quite. Pretty much all we know is that she joined a brutal regime of rapists, murderers, and torturers. All the efforts to excuse that are pure speculation.

 

[maomao]

Nearly 5,000 posts and half of them speculating on unknowable stuff about this woman, i find it quite creepy.

In fact the majority of the thread was an argument about her nationality and whether it was right (or legal, as some posters are more concerned with legality than morality) to remove her British citizenship. Is that creepy?

 

[Athos]

In fact the majority of the thread was an argument about her nationality and whether it was right (or legal, as some posters are more concerned with legality than morality) to remove her British citizenship. Is that creepy?

For the record, me pointing out the falsity of your (and others') claims about the law isn't to say I think legality is more important than morality. (And I've criticised the law and its application in this case, and explained the current situation isn't my preference.)

 

[bimble]

In fact the majority of the thread was an argument about her nationality and whether it was right (or legal, as some posters are more concerned with legality than morality) to remove her British citizenship. Is that creepy?

No that’s not creepy, I think it’s the only thing that can really be discussed tbh. The rest (is she Evil or is she a victim) is the creepy bit.

 

[maomao]

For the record, me pointing out the falsity of your (and others') claims about the law isn't to say I think legality is more important than morality. (And I've criticised the law and its application in this case, and explained the current situation isn't my preference.)

What you spend the most time talking about can reasonably be assumed to be that what you consider most important. Though with you it's a way of pretending you've got your arse on the fence while keeping your feet squarely in the middle of 'string 'em up's' garden.