British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[bimble]

It doesn't work like that. The HS has to be satisfied that deprivation of British citizenship is 'conducive to the public good' - which could cover a multitude of sins!

Well, that’s not reassuring at all. That could cover selling ten pound bags of weed, couldn’t it, or being a drain on public finances even. Dual citizens on best behaviour from now on then.

 

[Athos]

An aspect of the Kazakh programme that I like is that they appear very willing to change their programme as they go. They seem to have a certain humility as they don't start off assuming they know how to do this. At the very least, that seems the right attitude to have.

Time will tell. Perhaps they'll do far better than any such programme to date, and achieve a 90% success rate, in which case they'll have released 'only' a few tens of violent fascist extremists (willing and able to kill and die for the cause) into their society.

 

[Spymaster]

Well, that’s not reassuring at all. That could cover selling ten pound bags of weed, couldn’t it, or being a drain on public finances even. Dual citizens on best behaviour from now on then.

The way to view it is to take a look at examples of it having been done and see which ones seem unreasonable. I've asked quite a few times for examples of it ever happening to non-terrorists and so far nobody has given one.

 

[bimble]

The way to view it is to take a look at examples of it having been done and see which ones seems unreasonable. I've asked quite a few times for examples of it ever happening to non-terrorists and so far nobody has given one.

Fine then, if it stays that way. But ‘conducive to the public good’ is about as wide open a definition as could exist isn’t it.

 

[Athos]

Leaving them to wander the streets, as suggested by nobody.

What do you think will happen to them ultimately, then? Even if she was convicted, Begum would be unlikely to get more than five years, of which she'd serve half, less any time in remand. She might be subject to a TPIM for a while thereafter, but likely to be free to do pretty much what she likes.

 

[Pickman's model]

When she first appeared she was in a camp controlled and administered by Kurdish, virulently anti-IS groups in an area where IS were completely defeated. The IS people were very definitely under control - she was, as far as HMG was concerned, secure. Unfortunately, several years on and the situation has changed - IS structures have effectively taken control of the internal management of the camps, though they are still in Kurdish controlled territory, IS have very much reasserted themselves as an insurgent/terrorist group in the wider area.

HMG is pursuing a less than perfect policy because there are no perfect policies available.

Hmg are utterly incompetent and never think further than the tip of Boris Johnson's nose

 

[Treacle Toes]

Has SB actually ever planned an attack or murdered anyone? I know she said she'd seen a severed head in a bin but did she take part or plan anything?

I get why people are cautious of course but the idea that she'd come back and be free to plan and follow through on anything has to be based on her already having done something like that doesn't it?

She left England and ended up a 'brood mare' for IS.

 

[Athos]

The way to view it is to take a look at examples of it having been done and see which ones seems unreasonable. I've asked quite a few times for examples of it ever happening to non-terrorists and so far nobody has given one.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Plenty of precedent for the state using powers (particularly anti-terrorism) for purposes beyond those for which they were intended.

 

[Pickman's model]

Has SB actually ever planned an attack or murdered anyone? I know she said she'd seen a severed head in a bin but did she take part or plan anything?

I get why people are cautious of course but the idea that she'd come back and be free to plan and follow through on anything has to be based on her already having done something like that doesn't it?

She left England and ended up a 'brood mare' for IS.

Yeh but once she's back in blighty who knows what dastardly plot she might orchestrate, female more deadly than the male, etc etc

 

[Athos]

Has SB actually ever planned an attack or murdered anyone? I know she said she'd seen a severed head in a bin but did she take part or plan anything?

I get why people are cautious of course but the idea that she'd come back and be free to plan and follow through on anything has to be based on her already having done something like that doesn't it?

She left England and ended up a 'brood mare' for IS.

We don't what the intelligence says about her, but there is witness evidence that she carried an AK47 as an enforcer in the IS morality police.

 

[SpookyFrank]

The way to view it is to take a look at examples of it having been done and see which ones seems unreasonable. I've asked quite a few times for examples of it ever happening to non-terrorists and so far nobody has given one.

You can now be denied a renewal of your UK passport if your other passport shows a different surname. This is of course disproportionately likely to affect women, what with them being far more likely to change their surname.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm not sure I agree with that. Plenty of precedent for the state using powers (particularly anti-terrorism) for purposes beyond those for which they were intended.

Specifically of someone being stripped of their UK Citizenship under non-terrorism auspices, I mean. There must be some but nobody has been able to give an example. This indicates thatb this particular piece of law isn't being used to wholesale deprive people of their rights. Brown people mainly, of course. Mustn't forget to play the race card.

 

[Spymaster]

You can now be denied a renewal of your UK passport if your other passport shows a different surname. This is of course disproportionately likely to affect women, what with them being far more likely to change their surname.

Under what circumstances and how has it been applied? Let's have examples of the misapplication of this.

Give us some links.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Windrush anyone? ...Cause it never happens to people who aren't terrorists or sympathisers does it?

 

[bimble]

Specifically of someone being stripped of their UK Citizenship under non-terrorism auspices, I mean. There must be some but nobody has been able to give an example. This indicates thatb this particular piece of law isn't being used to wholesale deprive people of their rights. Brown people mainly, of course. Mustn't forget to play the race card.

This is quite sweet, you just have more faith in Priti Patel than other people do.

 

[Spymaster]

Windrush anyone? ...Cause it never happens to people who aren't terrorists or sympathisers does it?

Can you give us some examples of Windrush dual citizens having their British nationality revoked?

 

[SpookyFrank]

What do you think will happen to them ultimately, then? Even if she was convicted, a Begum would be unlikely to get more than five years, of which she'd serve half, less any time in remand. She might be subject to a TPIM for a while thereafter, but likely to be free to do pretty much what she likes.

God, due process, that sounds awful.

Aren't you supposed to be a lawyer or something?

 

[Athos]

Specifically of someone being stripped of their UK Citizenship under non-terrorism auspices, I mean. There must be some but nobody has been able to give an example. This indicates thatb this particular piece of law isn't being used to wholesale deprive people of their rights. Brown people mainly, of course. Mustn't forget to play the race card.

It isn't, yet. But I wouldn't be so blasé about the idea that it could never be. Especially with the latitude it gives the HS.

 

[Spymaster]

God, due process, that sounds awful.

Aren't you supposed to be a lawyer or something?

Why do you think she should be spared trial in the country where her crimes were committed, by the people she committed them against?

 

[Athos]

God, due process, that sounds awful.

Aren't you supposed to be a lawyer or something?

I've not practiced for many years.

The point is the process would inevitably end with them free to walk the UK's streets (often in no time at all) - something you seemed to deny was a consequence of your proposal.

I'd love them to be subject to the due process of a trial in the place they're alleged to have committed their crimes.

 

[A380]

I'm not in charge. If I was, if I was a supreme court judge or a government minister, I hope I would act in a way that made people less, rather than more likely to end up hating the society they were born in. I hope I would see such a high-profile case as an opportunity to make an example of kindness and mercy.

And I'm sure the string-her-up contingent here will find that hilarious.

So what would your plan actually look like? Not platitudes with which no one would disagree. I am genuinely interested, what do you think a fair an equitable state with a rational foreign policy and just criminal justice system (none of which the UK is /are obvs) should do?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

So what would your plan actually look like? Not platitudes with which no one would disagree. I am genuinely interested, what do you think a fair an equitable state with a rational foreign policy and just criminal justice system (none of which the UK is /are obvs) should do?

Leaving thousands of people in camps where nobody knows what to do with them, and within which IS is reasserting itself, is an ongoing disaster.

Big question to ask what the plan should be to deal with that. But would it help the situation if the foreign IS members were repatriated and every country were to take on responsibility to deal with their citizens as the likes of Kazakhstan are doing? I would think it would help, yes, so that's one part of a plan.

 

[not-bono-ever]

The Kazakhs are well aware how easily things can go to shit re Daesh just by looking around the wider region. Their take on things is motivated by tackling the issue before the randoms trudge home under their own steam. It helps that the state apparatus under the quasi dictatorship is already in place to enforce the policy

 

[Spymaster]

Leaving thousands of people in camps where nobody knows what to do with them, and within which IS is reasserting itself, is an ongoing disaster.

Big question to ask what the plan should be to deal with that. But would it help the situation if the foreign IS members were repatriated and every country were to take on responsibility to deal with their citizens as the likes of Kazakhstan are doing? I would think it would help, yes, so that's one part of a plan.

And at least 3 years of supporting genocide, torture, and rape, go unanswered.

Disgusting.

 

[not-bono-ever]

The Kazakhs are banging up the men who arrive back

 

[littlebabyjesus]

And at least 3 years of supporting genocide, torture, and rape, go unanswered.

Disgusting.

They're not being answered at the moment, are they? You've got a bunch of people in limbo and IS reasserting itself. The UK government's current response is entirely self-serving. It doesn't help the situation. It's not designed to help the situation.

 

[Spymaster]

They're not being answered at the moment, are they? You've got a bunch of people in limbo and IS reasserting itself. The UK government's current response is entirely self-serving. It doesn't help the situation. It's not designed to help the situation.

If she gets to the UK she will have escaped justice. Anything that prevents that happening is good. This is just one of quite a few reasons she shouldn't be allowed back.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

If she gets to the UK she will have escaped justice. Anything that prevents that happening is good. This is just one of quite a few reasons she shouldn't be allowed back.

If she gets to the UK, she faces five years in jail. You may not think that's enough, but it's not nothing.

 

[Spymaster]

If she gets to the UK, she faces five years in jail.

And no trial for supporting genocide, rape, and murder. As I said, escaping justice.

 

[Raheem]

If she gets to the UK she will have escaped justice. Anything that prevents that happening is good. This is just one of quite a few reasons she shouldn't be allowed back.

Does she have any prospect of facing justice without returning to the UK? AFAIK, there is no other country interested in prosecuting her, and being made a refugee as an alternative to being tried does not constitute justice by any stretch.