British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[not-bono-ever]

One my kids teachers used to be her tutor . They were not aware of anything amiss with her before she skipped the country

 

[Pickman's model]

Looking at the first highlighted bit I have to ask what is or isn't a failure. Was she? what is the purpose of education? To score points on a quiz or to to give you the skills to be easily able to integrate into society.
Yes education is aimed at giving you skills and a person may score highly on a technical issue but that does not give an understanding of personal stress or ideologies. Academic targets may have been met but what of pastoral care?
I work in a college where I have a relatively small number of students a year and I often focus more on assessment criteria that holistic needs. It's a sad part of teaching where you often deliver the care you think you can do rather than the care you would like to do. I think this maybe also true of most agencies.

Also just because someone doesn't hit all the targets doesn't mean they are not vurablr.

Er socialisation is to give you the skills to get along with other people. Vast swathes of what people are taught has nothing to do with integrating into society

 

[not-bono-ever]

She was asked her opinion on IS murdering their way across two countries and replied something along the lines of ‘our people are being murdered by American and British bombs in Baghuz’. “Our people” in this case being ISIS.

what else would she know ? We’ve kinda worked out she’s not massively smart ( or comes across that way anyway) .

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

I am not saying these people have no sense of agency. Those who lack any agency tend to coast though the system.
The problem is where the alternative lifestyle dream is sold as being more noble, rewarding, and achievable than the mainstream concept.

 

[NoXion]

Not even an anarchist cookbook on the shelf ? Tsk.
A bit of death metal and weed may have produced a very different begum

Funnily enough, I actually once had a number of different "manuals" like that from all over the political spectrum. Along with a digital copy of what purported to be the Anarchist Cookbook, I had something called the White Resistance Manual (which honestly was probably the most serious document of the lot) and something else entitled, IIRC, the CIA Book of Dirty Tricks (despite the title the author seemed to be a leftist). This was around about the same time I had a paper copy of an "SAS" survival guide, which as well as teaching stuff about wilderness survival like making shelters and building traps, also had a section on how to sneak up on people and slit their fucking throats. That was in a book I bought legitimately from a shop and everything. Fortunately or unfortunately, I lost the hard drive I kept them on, and the SAS book got lost when I moved house at some point.

I definitely would not feel safe openly searching up this kind of stuff nowadays, although I reckon you could probably still get your hands on them by hanging around the right Walter Mitty circles.

 

[not-bono-ever]

.

 

[Shippou-Sensei]

Er socialisation is to give you the skills to get along with other people. Vast swathes of what people are taught has nothing to do with integrating into society

Ok. What class is socialisation? What spreadsheet do you enter that into?

Yes being part of a school life is meant to give you access to the kind of socialisation that helps you integrate but that is not guaranteed. Some school experiences can be quite alienating.
Teachers hopefully might pick up on that but given all the other thing they are focusing on and what needs to go into the spreadsheet analysis of something as tangential and abstract as socialisation is not something I think most schools pay great attention too.
The student who sits alone but does fine on the mock is usually not your first priority.
Sure vast swathes of what people are taught has nothing to do with integrating into society but it is part of what people should learn (according to most curriculum models)
Vast swathes of people turn out fine but the problem is not with vast swathes of students.
I want to know why it goes wrong to try and avoid it in the future.
If we accept young people into our care as a society how do we deal with those who fall short?
Reformation or exile?

 

[Pickman's model]

Ok. What class is socialisation? What spreadsheet do you enter that into?

Yes being part of a school life is meant to give you access to the kind of socialisation that helps you integrate but that is not guaranteed. Some school experiences can be quite alienating.
Teachers hopefully might pick up on that but given all the other thing they are focusing on and what needs to go into the spreadsheet analysis of something as tangential and abstract as socialisation is not something I think most schools pay great attention too.
The student who sits alone but does fine on the mock is usually not your first priority.
Sure vast swathes of what people are taught has nothing to do with integrating into society but it is part of what people should learn (according to most curriculum models)
Vast swathes of people turn out fine but the problem is not with vast swathes of students.
I want to know why it goes wrong to try and avoid it in the future.
If we accept young people into our care as a society how do we deal with those who fall short?
Reformation or exile?

Badly

 

[RedRedRose]

Who seems to you more likely to kill people in the UK, Boris Johnson with the blood of thousands staining his hands or shemima begum?

I'm also happy for Boris to be stripped of his passport

 

[Spymaster]

Who seems to you more likely to kill people in the UK, Boris Johnson with the blood of thousands staining his hands or shemima begum?

Who would you rather have babysit your kids?

 

[RedRedRose]

People keep mentioning race, but this was also done to Jihadi Jack and he's a white Canadian/British national.

 

[not-bono-ever]

People keep mentioning race, but this was also done to Jihadi Jack and he's a white Canadian/British national.

I mentioned earlier, look at social media comments in this and race

 

[littlebabyjesus]

People keep mentioning race, but this was also done to Jihadi Jack and he's a white Canadian/British national.

There is a massive difference between the two cases, which is that Letts (and Canada) was aware of his dual citizenship and had indeed reached out to the Canadian authorities the year before his British citizenship was revoked.

 

[Spymaster]

There is a massive difference between the two cases, which is that Letts was aware of his dual citizenship and had indeed reached out to the Canadian authorities the year before his British citizenship was revoked.

The fact that the majority of dual citizens who’ve had their British nationality stripped for joinimg ISIS are brown is not evidence of racism. It’s evidence that the vast majority of British dual citizens who join ISIS are brown.

You know that.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't agree with what they did to Letts either btw. And fwiw Canada has a far less grubby attitude than the UK.

But the cases contain a huge different. What has been done to Begum is far, far grubbier.

 

[Athos]

Aside from anything else, this is a gift to the radicalizers and groomers.

See, you don't belong here. You'll never truly belong to them. They will never accept you as truly British. Your loyalties should lie elsewhere.

Any calculation of risk needs to factor in the open goal this decision represents to those who seek to turn and groom disaffected teenagers like Begum. It's not just morally rotten to do this. It's also incredibly foolish.

Whilst not theoretically impossible, and accepting we have no data one way or the other, it seems inherently unlikely that this legal provision would be a deciding factor in a significant number of people joining IS. I suspect that, in practice, it has enabled more dangerous people to be excluded from our society than it has created within it.

There's also a strong undercurrent of liberal superiority in much of this debate. This idea that our values are so clearly better that the only reason people could eschew them is that we've alienated those people. Maybe they understand our values, and have had every opportunity to embrace them, but hate them (and us), and prefer values that are not only at odds with ours, but are incompatible with our safety and security?

 

[Athos]

I don't agree with what they did to Letts either btw. And fwiw Canada has a far less grubby attitude than the UK.

But the cases contain a huge different. What has been done to Begum is far, far grubbier.

You're right. Though we don't know they wouldn't have acted just as grubbily if she'd been white. The idea that this is motivated by racism is flimsy, and certainly a non-starter when it comes to any serious challenge (legal or ethical).

 

[Red Cat]

Looking at the first highlighted bit I have to ask what is or isn't a failure. Was she? what is the purpose of education? To score points on a quiz or to to give you the skills to be easily able to integrate into society.
Yes education is aimed at giving you skills and a person may score highly on a technical issue but that does not give an understanding of personal stress or ideologies. Academic targets may have been met but what of pastoral care?
I work in a college where I have a relatively small number of students a year and I often focus more on assessment criteria that holistic needs. It's a sad part of teaching where you often deliver the care you think you can do rather than the care you would like to do. I think this maybe also true of most agencies.

Also just because someone doesn't hit all the targets doesn't mean they are not vurablr.

You seem to think I'm arguing with you rather than trying to explore the subject. She may well have been vulnerable and academically able but your example of vulnerability was your students who haven't succeeded in mainstream education, and that wasn't the case for her. My initial point was that adolescence, because it's a state of transition and change, as experienced in our society anyway, is a potentially vulnerable time for all.

But we don't know very much about her at all, so it's hard to say anything that isn't very general. As I pointed out in the bit you didn't highlight:

I'm wondering what could've made a difference for her when there wasn't an identified need at the time? I'm not saying there wasn't anything btw but I don't think we have much understanding of her particular trajectory do we?

 

[krtek a houby]

She was asked her opinion on IS murdering their way across two countries and replied something along the lines of ‘our people are being murdered by American and British bombs in Baghuz’. “Our people” in this case being ISIS.

Did she say IS is great?

 

[Red Cat]

Yes, lots of people arguing she can’t possibly have full agency because of her background.

Well, nobody has full agency, but there are clearly times when we have less than others.

I do think this case brings out questions about agency in relation to age, gender, ethnicity, class, who is seen to have it and what colours our views about who doesn't. I think that's one of the reasons it's attracted so much discussion.

 

[kebabking]

Did she say IS is great?

IS bride Shamima Begum full transcript: 'It was nice at first, like in the videos'

The teenager says "a lot of people should have sympathy" for her and there is no evidence she has done anything dangerous.

news.sky.com

What do you think her attitude to IS was at the time she game the interview?

 

[krtek a houby]

IS bride Shamima Begum full transcript: 'It was nice at first, like in the videos'

The teenager says "a lot of people should have sympathy" for her and there is no evidence she has done anything dangerous.

news.sky.com

What do you think her attitude to IS was at the time she game the interview?

Dunno, am not a mind reader.

Are you?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Did she say IS is great?

Not sure it matters if she did.

Some here seem to be suggesting that she needs to show evidence of deradicalisation before she should be considered for help to return here. She's not exaclty in the ideal environment right now for that process to take place.

As the piece I linked to earlier pointed out, Northern European countries could learn from others about the kinds of ways this can be handled. These aren't easy solutions - the easy solution is to act like the UK and try to disown the problem, but that's not really a solution at all ultimately. These countries might not be getting everything right, but at least their intentions are correct.

Kazakhstan has repatriated more than 400 children and 100 mothers, regarding all of the children as victims even if they have been radicalized. Kazakhstan has also implemented rehabilitation programs that are necessary to ensuring that the children are able to adjust into the society and not conduct violent attacks in the future. Under the auspices of Kazakhstan’s Ministry of Education, two non-governmental organizations have opened 17 rehabilitation and reintegration centers that employ mental health professionals, religious scholars, lawyers, healthcare professionals, and teachers, all of whom are committed to helping the children and their mothers. In Kosovo, deradicalization programs for returnees involve addressing the individual factors that contributed to the adults’ decisions to join ISIS, as well as the structural inadequacies that made some Kosovars feel marginalized and desperate for opportunity – desperate enough to leave Kosovo to join ISIS. This societal aspect of deradicalization that involves listening to and addressing returnees’ legitimate grievances is one with which many Western European countries have struggled.

imo Begum belongs in a grey area - part victim, part perpetrator. Dealing with such cases effectively is going to involve a mix of caution, rigour and compassion.

 

[kebabking]

Dunno, am not a mind reader.

Are you?

No, but I can read the transcript - the one you've actually quoted.

If you want to read through it and quote the bits where she talks about being disappointed with the reality of IS, where she's upset by the brutality of IS, and how she wishes she'd never set foot there, be my guest - I'm sure your being able to show this stuff in writing will, once and for all, quell any talk of her being a deeply unpleasant individual with very nasty attitudes to anyone who doesn't share her political/religious viewpoints....

 

[krtek a houby]

No, but I can read the transcript - the one you've actually quoted.

If you want to read through it and quote the bits where she talks about being disappointed with the reality of IS, where she's upset by the brutality of IS, and how she wishes she'd never set foot there, be my guest - I'm sure your being able to show this stuff in writing will, once and for all, quell any talk of her being a deeply unpleasant individual with very nasty attitudes to anyone who doesn't share her political/religious viewpoints....

Haven't quoted any transcript.

Am asking simply if she actually said ISIS is great, in response to you saying "She still thought that IS was great".

 

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Bangladesh has stated that any of its citizens who return from ISIS will be hanged, so her best bet is to embrace her Bangladeshiness and make her way to the U.K. and claim asylum.

 

[Pickman's model]

Who would you rather have babysit your kids?

i think they'd imbibe fewer bad ideas from begum

 

[A380]

Whilst not theoretically impossible, and accepting we have no data one way or the other, it seems inherently unlikely that this legal provision would be a deciding factor in a significant number of people joining IS. I suspect that, in practice, it has enabled more dangerous people to be excluded from our society than it has created within it.

There's also a strong undercurrent of liberal superiority in much of this debate. This idea that our values are so clearly better that the only reason people could eschew them is that we've alienated those people. Maybe they understand our values, and have had every opportunity to embrace them, but hate them (and us), and prefer values that are not only at odds with ours, but are incompatible with our safety and security?

This^.

I am sure there are lots of clever, educated well motivated people in IS/Desh . I imagine quite a lot of their fighters were courageous and, however strong your faith, if you are a true volunteer suicide bomberyou are going to have to be massively brave to detonate . It’s because of this I despise the ideals and ideology and am sufficiently scared of them that I’d like us to be fighting them in Syria and Iraq rather than London and Luton The more asymmetrically the better.

 

[pardon]

Quite.

Provided that if the 5[ father or mother] of such person is a citizen of Bangladesh by descent only, that person shall not be a citizen of Bangladesh by virtue of this section unless-



(a) that person's birth having occurred in a country outside Bangladesh the birth is registered at a Bangladesh Consulate or Mission in that country, or where there is no Bangladesh Consulate or Mission in that country at the prescribed Consulate or Mission or at a Bangladesh Consulate or Mission in the country nearest to that country

So we are absolutely clear that her birth was registered at the Bangladeshi consulate.

You have evidence of this...?

 

[Pickman's model]

This^.

I am sure there are lots of clever, educated well motivated people in IS/Desh . I imagine quite a lot of their fighters were courageous and, however strong your faithif you are a true volunteer suicide bomberyou are going to have to be massively brave to drying . It’s because of this I despise the ideals and ideology and am sufficiently scared of them that I’d like us to be fighting them in Libya and Iraq rather than London.The more asymmetrically the better.

how fortunate then that the cameron administration created the conditions for the uk to fight them in libya