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British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

Fucking Bangladeshis. Flagrant disregard of international law leaving her stateless like that. :rolleyes:

I don't know what the rolleyes is for; the Bangladeshi government should absolutely be criticised for a flagrant breach of Bangladeshi law, and for making her de facto stateless. Whilst you might take a dim view of the UK government being opportunist in exploiting the letter of the law and beating Bangladesh to the punch, the Bangladeshi government has unequivocally behaved unlawfully!
 
This thread is not about the Kurds/Syrians though is it - it’s about the machinations of the UKG. No one in this thread is arguing that she should be rescued.

Careful. If you don't repeatedly post fantasies about her being hanged or bombed then you can only be demanding that she be immediately returned to the uk and put up in a plush council house at the tax payers expense. There is no room for nuance or complexity in a case like this.
 
Or a victim.

What acts of terror did she cause, again?

I seem to remember she was a member of some kind of “ethical court” after she voluntarily left the UK to join ICIS. But I suppose that doesn’t answer your question. I don’t know what first-hand acts of terror she personally caused, but I get the feeling she doesn’t feel too much affinity with Britain and would rather divide than unite. So it’s a no from me.
 
I seem to remember she was a member of some kind of “ethical court” after she voluntarily left the UK to join ICIS. But I suppose that doesn’t answer your question. I don’t know what first-hand acts of terror she personally caused, but I get the feeling she doesn’t feel too much affinity with Britain and would rather divide than unite. So it’s a no from me.

Plenty of British people don't feel an affinity with Britain. Having a kid like her become some kind of uniting force, through hatred of her, isn't the way forward.
 
There’s a difference between “not feeling an affinity with Britain...” and “gonna join ISIS to eradicate the non believers in Britain”

She might feel victimised, but she is not a victim. Boo hoo. Don’t flip flop between countries, violate innocents, and come back and claim innocence.

Also: “don’t hate her” — why not? She seems pretty hostile. In my day, we used to have to prove our worth to other people before we fit in.







Plenty of British people don't feel an affinity with Britain. Having a kid like her become some kind of uniting force, through hatred of her, isn't the way forward.
 
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For me it's simple. A 'british citizen' is no longer a british citizen when 'we' can find a way to deny that fact...and if there is a way of denying that fact, it calls into question whether they actually were ever a British citizen at all. Which is clearly bollocks regardless of how much we despise terrorists.

That all sounds a bit mixed up to me. She had the legal status of being a British citizen, so previously was; but then had that status withdrawn, so now isn't. Nobody is denying anything. Being a British citizen is purely a legal position, not some unchanging or unchangeable timeless fact.
 
Thanks. What made me think about it was I was talking to a clinical psychologist who was saying that there's increasing research that shows the programs designed for pedophile rehabilitation are increasingly shown not to work, and in some instances even encourage the behaviour and enable them to do things like exchange methods of evading detection. Various suggestions as to why this might be, just thought there might be some interesting possible similarities.
Going somewhat off topic but you might be interested in Liz Fekete is criticism of far-right de-radicalisation programs in her book Europe's Fault Lines. She draws contrasts between these programs and other de-radicalisation programs.
Such programmes to reset the cognitive behaviour and rewire the thought processes of maladjusted individuals are to be delivered by a Europe-wide industry of professional counter-radicalisation experts. Not only are these experts, some of whom are former neo-Nazis, vetted and promoted by the EC – they explicitly distance themselves from the values of anti-racism and anti-fascism, blaming anti-fascist movements for the unhelpful branding of neo-Nazis as racists and creating a hostile environment that hinders the successful exit from white supremacism.
 
Going somewhat off topic but you might be interested in Liz Fekete is criticism of far-right de-radicalisation programs in her book Europe's Fault Lines. She draws contrasts between these programs and other de-radicalisation programs.

Cheers, that looks interesting. Will look for a PDF/e-book.
 
That all sounds a bit mixed up to me. She had the legal status of being a British citizen, so previously was; but then had that status withdrawn, so now isn't. Nobody is denying anything. Being a British citizen is purely a legal position, not some unchanging or unchangeable timeless fact.

I guess the point is that it creates a two-tier system of citizenship; for some, it's precarious - it can be removed.

Which, on the face of it, does sound a bit iffy, especially in cases where people haven't chosen to be (or even know they are) dual citizens, and particularly where the effect might be to leave them de facto (if not de jure) stateless. (Though, let's be honest, does anyone really believe that she'd not have gone if she'd understood she would be giving up British citizenship?)

Of course, the obvious argument is 'don't become a terrorist, then', but that doesn't really address all the issues.

First, the scope of the discretion it gives the HS (and the possibility they'll use if for their own political purposes); secondly, the lack of transparency (of the decision and the oversight of it), though most people realise the need to protect sensitive intelligence; thirdly, scope creep - the possibility that the powers will eventually be used for wider purposes (albeit there's no evidence that's occurred to date); fourthly, the social message it sends about belonging; fifthly, the idea that the UK owes the rest of the world that it will deal with terrorists that have been created here; and, finally, the sort of unjust situation it creates - where someone who left a a child is rotting in custody with no prospect of a trial. (Others are also concerned it was applied in a discriminatory or an unlawful way in Begum's case, though there's no evidence of those things.)

I don't think anyone would suggest the current position is the perfect solution. But, what would be? Extreme cases like this don't lead to good laws.

One argument is that such individuals should be allowed to return to the UK. The trouble with that is that, once back, there's insufficient legal mechanisms or practical possibilities to imprison then for any significant time, or otherwise control, or monitor them, such that they could commit atrocities here (and little evidence that they want to be rehabilitated or that deradicalisation works).

So it comes back to the assessment of the risk they pose, which will typically be based on intelligence to which we can't be party. For any individual the government seeks to strip of their citizenship this could range from the dodgy end of the spectrum e.g. obtained trough torture by foreign regimes; or be reliable e.g. an eyewitness account from an undercover officer, or telephone interception; or a mixture, with or without intelligence 'spin' (politically motivated or otherwise). One thing's for sure, none of us here have any idea what the intelligence says about the risk she poses. (Part of that assessment to weigh the risk of all these people being left in one place ready to be liberated if things go south.)

Also, whilst we might have sympathy for the individual, who could be a victim in their own right (especially if young), that doesn't necessarily means there's any less risk. (Which is what we should be looking at, rather than punishment (where mitigation would be more relevant).)

And where should the line be, anyway? A 10% chance of them killing one person? A 60% chance of then killing 30? That they inspire others? Or radicalised them? That they become a rallying point for fellow travellers?

I'd prefer that she be tried and serve any sentence locally.
 
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That all sounds a bit mixed up to me. She had the legal status of being a British citizen, so previously was; but then had that status withdrawn, so now isn't. Nobody is denying anything. Being a British citizen is purely a legal position, not some unchanging or unchangeable timeless fact.

No, it isn't mixed up.
Can you have your 'legal status' withdrawn?
Is your nationality purely a legal position?
 
No, it isn't mixed up.
Can you have your 'legal status' withdrawn?
Is your nationality purely a legal position?

Most of what we have - liberty, property, children, bodily autonomy to refuse treatment, etc. - is a legal position insofar as the state could take it away by operation of the law, in the right circumstances. I'm sure few people think that's ideal, but most think it's the least bad solution to certain problems. And, as yet, nobody here has suggested any solution to a problem like Begum that doesn't have many significant weaknesses.
 
No, it isn't mixed up.
Can you have your 'legal status' withdrawn?
Is your nationality purely a legal position?

I have no idea, I expect in some circumstances I probably could though.

What is making this complicated is this overlapping mix of nationality, a sense of belonging (or not), culture, religion, ethnicity, family heritage, legal status as a citizen, and behaviour and attitudes, all in the context of what would be a difficult case with anyone, let alone her. Then of course all the concerns and dangers for others this process might cause. So I think it's far from simple, as evidenced by these 148 pages.
 
Or a victim.

What acts of terror did she cause, again?

According to "eyewitnesses" she was an enthusiastic member of the morality police. Not sure how accurate this report is, but its possible that she wasn't "just a housewife " as she claims.

 
According to "eyewitnesses" she was an enthusiastic member of the morality police. Not sure how accurate this report is, but its possible that she wasn't "just a housewife " as she claims.

This came up before in the thread but gets conveniently overlooked or dismissed because it was reported in The Telegraph.
 
This came up before in the thread but gets conveniently overlooked or dismissed because it was reported in The Telegraph.
We should all maintain a good dose of scepticism about all reports coming from the region. Former ISIS people are denouncing one another all over the place, for a variety of reasons. That said, we know Begum was an enthusiastic member of the death cult and that she willingly took on the role assigned to women in the group. Not sure that is in dispute.

Personally, I hold her responsible for that, with the caveat that her age when she left provides a degree of mitigation but only a degree. My objections to the UK's actions here have never been about a presumed innocence on the part of Begum.
 
Happened to me. I was an EU citizen, and I really liked that, got it taken away overnight and there was nothing I could do about it.

ETA Elizabeth of York made the same point earlier.
You weren't made stateless. And that's not comparable anyway. You were never liable for EU jury service or EU military service, nor could you have been. You didn't apply for nor receive your EU passport from an EU Home Office.
 
My objections to the UK's actions here have never been about a presumed innocence on the part of Begum.

I don't like it either.

What would you have had them do, as the law stands (bearing in mind that, if she was allowed back, she'd be free and very difficult to monitor in a very short time)?

Would it make any difference if they're was, say, telephone interception intelligence in which she was heard explaining that it's her intention to come back, do a couple of years in prison, then martyr herself (which wouldn't be admissible in any criminal trial against her)?

For future cases, what should the law say?

Personally, with regard to her, not knowing the intelligence upon which the assessment of risk was based, I can't say whether what the government has done is the lesser of two evils (though, of course, I don't just take the government at its word).

Going forward, we'd have to make a choice between the possibility that some people are amenable to losing their citizenship; or there being other measures e.g. greater surveillance powers, longer sentences, more draconian restrictions on freedom, to control the risk that these individuals pose; or accepting some (potentially many) wholly innocent casualties.

Each has some significant pros and cons. But, if we did end up with the first or second, I'd be keen to limit HS discretion, to ensure really effective oversight, and for there to be the maximum transparency possible in matters of this kind.
 
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You weren't made stateless. And that's not comparable anyway. You were never liable for EU jury service or EU military service, nor could you have been. You didn't apply for nor receive your EU passport from an EU Home Office.
Just re read my post, and the question it was in response to. I must have missed the point where Statelessness was mentioned,

No one is liable for EU military service. What are you the Daily Mail with some EUSSR Euro army National Service bollocks?
 
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Just re read my post, and the question it was in response to. I must have missed the point where Statelessness was mentioned,

So what, I didn't mention statelessness but the question was asked in the context of this thread and about the UKG making someone stateless by removing their citizenship.

None of us were ever 'EU nationals' and made stateless by brexit, we were always British nationals who enjoyed the benefits of Britain being part of the EU.

The fact is that I can't see this happening to anyone who doesn't have a least one parent born elsewhere.

...and thinking generally...the only time I can aliken this to in my head is when people used to get transported elsewhere and lost their citizenship forever in many cases. Can anyone think of more recent examples?
 
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So what, I didn't mention statelessness but the question was asked in the context of this thread and about the UKG making someone stateless by removing their citizenship.

Except it didn't. She's still a legal citizen of Bangladesh, even if Bangladesh's actions (which were unlawful let's remember) subsequently have made her de facto stateless. For all that it's actions may have been shabby, opportunist, politically motivated, and devisive, the idea that HMG made her stateless is baseless.
 
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