not-bono-ever
meh
one thing we can likely all agree on is that if she gets to the UK, its going to be difficult to move her on
British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'
- Thread starter hipipol
- Start date
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
Good thing that states never acquire a new power that's justified by the need to target one particular group, and then end up using that power against a wider and wider range of people over time, innit?
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
It’s best we remove all those laws against murderers then. Just in case the government start to use them against non-murderers.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
Tbf, if the UK government announced that they were suddenly going to stop dealing with murderers the way they had up until now, and announced that they were going to start declaring that everyone convicted of murder was no longer a British citizen, I'd think that would sound a bit dodgy as well.
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Not even sure they're really even justifying it. It's banditry, essentially, on a par with the time Brown invoked terrorism laws to try to freeze Icelandic bank funds. They know full well that this is a misuse of power. They don't care because they judge that it plays well to sections of the public/media that they want to play to.
ItWillNeverWork
Messy Crimbobs, fellow humans.
Why?
littlebabyjesus
one of Maxwell's demons
Arbitrary (ab)use of power isn't a good thing.
hitmouse
music obfuscation technology
Because I don't think it'd be justified, and because the legal system already has a range of ways of dealing with people convicted of serious crimes that, while they may not be ideal, certainly seem better than just going "this person is no longer British and therefore not our problem." Do you think it would be justified?
SpookyFrank
A cheap source of teeth for aquarium gravel
They have done just that with the new war crimes law. Sadly for Shamima Begum she's the wrong colour, sorry, the wrong kind of war criminal.
She’s a terrorist
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Raheem
Well-Known Member
She's a drippy ISIS housewife.
Shippou-Sensei
4:1:2.5
The whole situation is kind of sad.
I took a look at some of this stuff as part of safeguarding/prevent training.
The thing that stuck out to me was everyone talking about their expectations and the success the girls had been having academically.
Now I don't know what really happened but to me I see a picture of teenagers who have parents who have come to britain looking for a fresh start and are hoping their kids make it in this place*
I seem to remember that it was their parents hope for them to do science/maths A-Levels and go on to a prestigious career.
I couldn't help but imagine if I had that pressure on me. Not only that expectation but also some other person telling them about this other lifestyle they could buy into.
One that was all about family and faith. You can be happy with your new family. You already have done enough. We will accept you for who you are now. Don't worry about all that study.
People don't think of themselves as being the villian. These kids (and as far as i'm aware they were children when they were groomed for this) brought into a lifestyle choice because it felt to them more appealing that living as a regular british citizen.
I don't see enough people asking why that is or how we can change that.
Are we saying no one can come back, because we couldn't change their mind? What does that say about us?
Are we saying that the choice they made was so heinous that it impedes reintegration? Then what does that say about our duty of care as the initiating decision was made while under our care?
I'd also take a pinch of salt with any statements that have been made if that person is currently living in an environment where a statement that attacks some elements of the local community may cause them harm.
While I don't want to say there should be no consequences I feel that if we can't even try to support a person who was indoctrinated as a child while under our care then i think we are not trying hard enough.
While justice often calls for punishment I would like to think that reform is an even greater part.
*I don't remember if all of the girls had immigrant/refugee parents but I think most did.
I took a look at some of this stuff as part of safeguarding/prevent training.
The thing that stuck out to me was everyone talking about their expectations and the success the girls had been having academically.
Now I don't know what really happened but to me I see a picture of teenagers who have parents who have come to britain looking for a fresh start and are hoping their kids make it in this place*
I seem to remember that it was their parents hope for them to do science/maths A-Levels and go on to a prestigious career.
I couldn't help but imagine if I had that pressure on me. Not only that expectation but also some other person telling them about this other lifestyle they could buy into.
One that was all about family and faith. You can be happy with your new family. You already have done enough. We will accept you for who you are now. Don't worry about all that study.
People don't think of themselves as being the villian. These kids (and as far as i'm aware they were children when they were groomed for this) brought into a lifestyle choice because it felt to them more appealing that living as a regular british citizen.
I don't see enough people asking why that is or how we can change that.
Are we saying no one can come back, because we couldn't change their mind? What does that say about us?
Are we saying that the choice they made was so heinous that it impedes reintegration? Then what does that say about our duty of care as the initiating decision was made while under our care?
I'd also take a pinch of salt with any statements that have been made if that person is currently living in an environment where a statement that attacks some elements of the local community may cause them harm.
While I don't want to say there should be no consequences I feel that if we can't even try to support a person who was indoctrinated as a child while under our care then i think we are not trying hard enough.
While justice often calls for punishment I would like to think that reform is an even greater part.
*I don't remember if all of the girls had immigrant/refugee parents but I think most did.
Shippou-Sensei
4:1:2.5
Slight drunken rant forgive me if it is a bit overblown
CosmikRoger
Well-Known Member
Loads of weaselly racism on this thread.
Nah, personally thought it was a good post, well-said, chin-chin.
Athos
Well-Known Member
Yes, mostly in the form of tacitly lauding the superiority of 'British Justice', and the right of some to avoid being dealt with where they were captured. Though, strangely, I don't remember people clamoring for Gary Glitter's right to be tried in the UK.
Shippou-Sensei
4:1:2.5
Thank you. I often don't stick my oar in to much of this stuff but the mixture of having studied the case somewhat* and the dutch courage** given by the sauce made me open up.
* I really don't actually know enough to feel like I really understand what went on however when I tried to put my mindset into what that situation might of been like it made things scarily appealing.
** Vergeef me voor de bewoordingen
Athos
Well-Known Member
Or both a victim and a perpetrator? I've no idea where or not it's true, but she's alleged to have been an enforcer in ISIL's 'morality police', to have stitched people into suicide vests, and to have been a recruiter for the organisation. But, even if none of that's true, merely joining ISIL and caring out the role of the wife of a fighter assisted the organisation.
There's plenty of people studying why young people join terrorist organisations. Or do you mean the media or people like us, posting on social media? The prevent training is surely based on some of that research.
I'm curious...do you recall anything about adolescence on your training? As distinct from earlier childhood. I don't recall anything about the specific vulnerabilities of adolescents on the prevent training I did. But I think one of the things that's interesting in your description is how adolescence is a difficult time (just look at what this case has generated as a symbol of this inbetween age) and I was thinking how appealing it might be to jump over the difficulties of adolescence, with its uncertainty and change and fear of failure, in favour of a life that seemed to offer premature adulthood - marriage - and all the fantasies of what being an adult entails - power, control, freedom.
I think as adolescents are on the cusp of independence, it doesn't really aid our understanding to keep calling this young person or young people like her a child, even if a child under law. It might help us to understand if we consider why being on this cusp can be so difficult and marked by conflicts (emotional and social) and the strategies that some adolescents employ to bypass it, though I don't think we can eliminate all risk. I wonder when you say under our care - is there something specific you have in mind that you think might have prevented her taking the route she did?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
The Prevent training I did recently (mandatory for NHS work, an online thing) talked about adolescents a fair bit, and interestingly far right extremism was talked about much, much more than anything else. Thought it was actually OK tbh.
Shippou-Sensei
4:1:2.5
I wouldn't doubt this as true but I would say if you were a person who felt like they had no agency this is the kind of stuff you would buy right into (if they felt they had agency i think we would be looking at a very different picture).
It also reminds me really heavily of people who have brought into other cultish beliefs. Think about all the stuff that jehovas witness or scientology do.
In those cases I think most people talk about rescuing, deprogramming and recovery. While there may be some cases of people going beyond the pale and where reintegration seems nigh impossible in any of these cases I'm not sure if this is the same.
Do we take a person like this in, provide them with their basic beesd and try to gain better understanding of where they are now and where they came form or do we just say no?
What is the line between indoctrinated, complicit and active participant drawn?
Do we even bother to consider if there is a line?
I may be accused of mealy mouthed whataboutism but I do think we need to examine this to actually understand this.
Re integrated extremists may allow us to understand what made them convert and what brought them back.
how are we meant to combat something about a movement unless we understand it. Who can really say what a movement is unless they lived it.
I think integration will work better than exclusion. I may be proved wrong by the march of times but this is my current view point.
krtek a houby
Merry Xmas!
Incidentally, chin chin is an informal term for penis, in Japanese
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Several hundred people (about 40% of the 900 who travelled to fight with daesh) have returned to the UK. I'm still unsure why sb is so uniquely dangerous she can't be allowed to return and must rot in the me.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
And it often reveals who's a dick elsewhere
Yes, far right extremism was talked about most in mine too. I don't recall there being much on adolescence as a distinct phase - do you remember how adolescence was itself was presented?
LDC
On est tous des pangolins
kebabking
Not a Girly Swot, but I like them....
I rather doubt anyone considers her uniquely dangerous, she has been stripped of citizenship simply because it's available as a tactic to use against her. In others it's not a mechanism that's been available, so hasn't been used.
Some of the others got a 500lb Paveway through the windscreen - had she been pinged and fallen within the ROE while someone was overhead I have no doubt she'd have ended her days similarly.
It's simply about bringing whatever weapon you have to bare when the enemy presents itself - Paveway or Brimstone was available when some of the others popped up, this is available when she (and others) popped up. For some, sadly, none of the above were available when they eventually got pinged...
Shippou-Sensei
4:1:2.5
I will try to address this point by point but i'm up late/early so forgive me if I miss things. On the whole I think my safeguarding training has been decent. but it's still tricky.
While I know plenty of people are probably studying this as a member of staff that is requested to be aware of these thing the training that we get is perhaps a bit patchy
It's not that there isn't information available it's just that people only have a limited head space so most training only hits the high points and broad strokes.
Links to studies are probably made in most cases but can unfortunately be only appear very small text at the bottom of each slide.
I don't remember anything specifically about adolescence but I stared on predominantly 25+ training but now mainly teach 14-19 year olds. After many years I really feel that anything under mid 20s has a good chance as being expert bad decision makers.
Older people have that too. Of course you do find on the odd occasion a teen wise before their years.
In my case I find that a lot of my students are vulnerable. They have not fit the traditional school model and are looking for a new system to fit into.
When we are lucky that is college and a BTEC that leads to a level 2 or 3 qualification. If though some one else was selling them a (plausible) more attractive reality I get why they would join.
For a lot of these younger people mainstream education has already failed them and the mainstream zeitgeist wants to make you believe that you are the one at fault. You are too dumb to meet our standards.
Is it that unrealistic to think that people who think they are at fault , or are afraid that the label may be able to search for another answer?
And if our government/society are not meeting those needs who so we think might do that?
I think your point about maturity and marriage is very relative. Marriage gives a socially appropriate framework to pin own hopes upon. When you disagree with that frame work there is a potential for a lot of kick back.
I call those people children not because I'm dismissing what maturity that they have but to highlight how far they still have to go.
I consider duty of care from a broad governmental perspective not an individual one.
II don't know of a magic cure for these things. However if a government can deny integration it should also have considered the alternative paths. I for one have not heard any good arguments why de-radicalisation and reintegration is impossible.
It is easy to villinise someone's actions it is harder to integrate them.
Again please forgive my rant. I'm full three sheets to the wind at the moment so maybe talking shit.
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh well there's the weapon of getting the people in the camps cases resolved locally which might seem the easiest option short of bombing the places.
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