British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[SpackleFrog]

No, I think victims of one crime can be culpable of others (albeit that victimhood can be mitigation).

And thats why I don't like your posts.

 

[Spymaster]

Bootlicker.

Hubcap polisher

 

[A380]

.....This is a grubby ruling.

War is always grubby and horrid in its actuality, which is why it should be avoided whenever possible.

She chose to go to war and lost.The result is never going to be anything other than grubby.

 

[A380]

All I'm trying to get you to acknowledge is that there is a difference between saying that we know someone may pose a risk and that we know someone definitely does pose a risk. And if you try to claim that you can know someone poses a risk based on limited knowledge of them, the circumstances around them and what their motivations are then you are also claiming that we can all justifiably argue that we know quite a large number of people pose a risk.

The whole point of ‘risk’ is uncertainty- it’s in the definition: uncertainty x negative consequence. If HMG knew for certain what she would do then that would be an issue.

 

[A380]

...This has nothing to do with risk ...

And you are basing this on what evidence base?

Are you going to knock on the door of the partners of the two gay men, or the Jewish woman she kills before getting overpowered when she decides her imaginary friend in the sky wants her to get stabby outside the gay club or synagogue?
Asking for a friend.

 

[SpackleFrog]

And you are basing this on what evidence base?

Are you going to knock on the door of the partners of the two gay men, or the Jewish woman she kills before getting overpowered when she decides her imaginary friend in the sky wants her to get stabby outside the gay club or synagogue?
Asking for a friend.

What evidence have you to base this dark fantasy on?

 

[SpackleFrog]

The whole point of ‘risk’ is uncertainty- it’s in the definition: uncertainty x negative consequence. If HMG knew for certain what she would do then that would be an issue.

Yes, which is why I've taken issue with his certainty.

 

[A380]

What evidence have you to base this dark fantasy on?

Fishmongers' Hall attack - BBC News

All the latest content about Fishmongers' Hall attack from the BBC.

www.bbc.co.uk

Manchester Arena bombing - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

LGBTQ+ community mourns "proud gay men" killed in Reading terror attack

On 20 June, David Wails, James Furlong and Joe Ritchie-Bennett were stabbed to death by a lone attacker at Reading's Forbury Gardens.

www.gaytimes.co.uk

Sorry, not a ‘dark fantasy’ (which is incredibly insulting to those who’s lives have been taken or blighted by the way, people who’s lives and freedom also mattered) .

Repeats of which I’d like to minimise.

So again, what is the evidence base that you are using to support your statement that this damaged person presents no risk to other people?

 

[Athos]

And thats why I don't like your posts.

What don't you like? Nuance?

 

[not-bono-ever]

if a government can get security services falsely nodding towards the invasion of Iraq then it might not take much arm bending to ensure a favourable return on the risk assessment of what appears to be a pretty thick woman far away. She might however be a coiled spring of terrorism I concur. I am sorry but the performance of UKG throughout this whole affair isn’t one of legal engagement and responsibility - do you trust UKG on this ?

 

[not-bono-ever]

I wish she would just Fuck off tbf.I hate coming up with opinions on here that come across as trolling

 

[Athos]

if a government can get security services falsely nodding towards the invasion of Iraq then it might not take much arm bending to ensure a favourable return on the risk assessment of what appears to be a pretty thick woman far away. She might however be a coiled spring of terrorism I concur. I am sorry but the performance of UKG throughout this whole affair isn’t one of legal engagement and responsibility - do you trust UKG on this ?

Of course not. She may well be the victim of 'sexed up' intelligence.

But, based on what we do know, I think it more likely than not that she poses a significant risk (and one that would be hard to mitigate).

And it's hardly surprising that any intelligence can't be aired publicly, since that could reveal sensitive techniques, give away telephone interception, or even expose an agent.

I still think she should have been tried and punished locally, where her group committed its atrocious crimes against humanity.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Kinda agree with the last point - she should face trial somewhere

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not about what Begum does or doesn't deserve for her actions, imo. At its root, it's about what those who defeated Daesh now do with the thousands and thousands of people who had moved to live under ISIS. The UK's handwashing attitude doesn't help (not just the UK, has to be said).

And we shouldn't underestimate the power in the camps that internal ISIS enforcers wield. Getting any kind of a meaningful, uncoerced opinion out of Begum while she still has to go back to live in a camp is simply impossible.

This is a good article detailing many of the issues to do with repatriation. Horrific reading how children were used. Not just teenagers, but young children coopted into the killing.

PERSPECTIVE: Can We Repatriate the ISIS Children? – Homeland Security Today

I agree with its conclusion wrt the treatment of Begum and the motivation behind her treatment.

Shamima Begum’s case has been fraught with political indications. From the outset, Ms. Begum was judged far more harshly by the British public than women of European descent who also joined ISIS, with her photo even being used as a target at a shooting range. Her citizenship was stripped, and the UK government claimed that they were not willing to risk Britons’ lives to repatriate her baby, who later died. Ms. Begum’s family lawyer, the first author, and many others doubted the sincerity of this statement, volunteering to go to Syria themselves and claiming that it was not too dangerous to rescue a child. If governments were willing to send troops to save a journalist captured by ISIS, surely, they claimed, the government could send troops or officials into SDF camps to retrieve children. Shortly thereafter, the UK repatriated a group of orphaned children, indicating that they were willing to save those who did not garner such a harsh public reaction.

 

[butchersapron]

Kinda agree with the last point - she should face trial somewhere

Possibly those they were committed against - rather than the liberal-imperialist's demanding she only face british justice because she's british.

That camp where ISIS women now run? Is there an assumption she is against them? Based on what? Last we heard she doubled down on supporting ISIS. Maybe, again, it's because she's british. Ugh.

 

[butchersapron]

Racist soppy liberalism.

(edit: Yeah that'll be useful to post)

 

[A380]

if a government can get security services falsely nodding towards the invasion of Iraq then it might not take much arm bending to ensure a favourable return on the risk assessment of what appears to be a pretty thick woman far away. She might however be a coiled spring of terrorism I concur. I am sorry but the performance of UKG throughout this whole affair isn’t one of legal engagement and responsibility - do you trust UKG on this ?

I don’t. But I trust her even less. This isn’t about the balance of reasonable doubt and open evidence used in our, laughably called criminal‘ justice’ system. It’s about someone who chose to go and fight in a war. Someone who is now quite likely to be even more fucked up than she was when she was engaged in the active support of beheadings of unarmed prisoners and the subjugation into sexual slavery of other women and children for ideological and religious reasons. Someone I’d rather not have around people I care about in a place you can pop into Asda , buy a couple of carving knives and get stabby till the ARVs ( or hero members of the public) rock up. It’s not really about ethics.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Racist soppy liberalism.

(edit: Yeah that'll be useful to post)

Cheers for that

 

[Pickman's model]

I don’t. But I trust her even less. This isn’t about the balance of reasonable doubt and open evidence used in our, laughably called criminal‘ justice’ system. It’s about someone who chose to go and fight in a war. Someone who is now quite likely to be even more fucked up than she was when she was engaged in the active support of beheadings of unarmed prisoners and the subjugation into sexual slavery of other women and children for ideological and religious reasons. Someone I’d rather not have around people I care about in a place you can pop into Asda , buy a couple of carving knives and get stabby till the ARVs ( or hero members of the public) rock up. It’s not really about ethics.

So she's so dangerous she can't be let back into the country to be held in prison while her case is heard in a court, which would almost certainly be a formality before she was returned to whence she came. I'm not sure from where you derive this imaginary situation where she's free to bowl about the country slitting throats and planting bombs. E2A not even sure she'd need to come back to blighty, some sort of fudge where she was held on the British base on Cyprus while engaging with a court remotely ought to meet what the sc suggested about a possible appeal

 

[A380]

So she's so dangerous she can't be let back into the country to be held in prison while her case is heard in a court, which would almost certainly be a formality before she was returned to whence she came. I'm not sure from where you derive this imaginary situation where she's free to bowl about the country slitting throats and planting bombs. E2A not even sure she'd need to come back to blighty, some sort of fudge where she was held on the British base on Cyprus while engaging with a court remotely ought to meet what the sc suggested about a possible appeal

So why bother ?

 

[Pickman's model]

So why bother ?

It's what we do here. The minute we stop bothering the entire edifice will collapse

 

[Athos]

So she's so dangerous she can't be let back into the country to be held in prison while her case is heard in a court, which would almost certainly be a formality before she was returned to whence she came. I'm not sure from where you derive this imaginary situation where she's free to bowl about the country slitting throats and planting bombs. E2A not even sure she'd need to come back to blighty, some sort of fudge where she was held on the British base on Cyprus while engaging with a court remotely ought to meet what the sc suggested about a possible appeal

Once she was in the UK there's no way she'd get sent back to the camp, even if she lost her appeal against the Home Secretary's decision. And it's no formality that she'd be held in custody awaiting the outcome.

 

[kebabking]

See, I said we should have followed the French example...

 

[Pickman's model]

Once she was in the UK there's no way she'd get sent back to the camp, even if she lost her appeal against the Home Secretary's decision. And it's no formality that she'd be held in custody awaiting the outcome.

Yeh which is why I think an extraterritorial solution in eg cyprus might be a better idea

 

[A380]

It's what we do here. The minute we stop bothering the entire edifice will collapse

Isn't that what you have been working towards all this time?

 

[Athos]

Yeh which is why I think an extraterritorial solution in eg cyprus might be a better idea

Doesn't solve the problem that'd it'd be hard to send her back there (or anywhere else) when she's out. But it'd still be better for her to be tried where she is.

 

[Pickman's model]

See, I said we should have followed the French example...

Tbh sooner or later people like you will have to go out and do the job all over again because while daesh have been dispersed they haven't been destroyed. And I wouldn't be surprised if we hear of them rising again.

 

[A380]

See, I said we should have followed the French example...

Pour encourager les autres...

 

[kebabking]

Yeh which is why I think an extraterritorial solution in eg cyprus might be a better idea

Even then she's on UK territory - as she would be on a ship, or in an aircraft, or in a Hilux in Syria with some men with big mustaches and North Face duvet jackets.

Once we touch her, she belongs to us - hence the desire to not touch her.

 

[Pickman's model]

Doesn't solve the problem that'd it'd be hard to send her back there (or anywhere else) when she's out. But it'd still be better for her to be tried where she is.

Is there any desire to deal with this issue - not just sb but everyone in the camps? I don't see that doing nothing is a great plan