British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[Athos]

But thats just a semantic way for you to claim that she poses a significant risk, and if you can do that then I can claim that Spymaster poses a significant risk as well. I might feel like saying it but it doesn't really stand up to scrutiny its just armchair psychology and conjecture.

Of course, you can claim what you like. And others can come to their own conclusion as to whether or not he represents the same threat as to someone who joined (and, as far as we know, never renounced) a murderous gang of murderers and rapists. None of us can 'know' what Spy or Begum will do, but we can make assessments based on the facts that are known to us. The idea that such fact-based risk assessment can/should be dismissed as conjecture is ridiculous. And it's a complete dead end as a basis for criticising the outcome in this case (not least of all because we don't have all the facts).

 

[Spymaster]

I'm a dual national and while I have no immediate plans to fight overseas to establish an Islamic caliphate, I definitely feel like this decision has downgraded my citizenship.

Really? Come off it.

I asked way back in the thread somewhere if anyone could give a single example of anyone having their citizenship revoked under any circumstance whatsoever other than joining a terrorist rape cult. I'm still waiting.

I'm a dual national under similar circumstances to Begum (I didn't know about it until I made enquiries). It brings certain advantages but also the drawback that I could lose my British citizenship if I did something extraordinarily evil. In fact, if I encouraged the mass murder of a state's citizens and agents and they were able to, I'd fully expect them to tell me to fuck right off.

It doesn't bother me one jot.

 

[Athos]

Really? Come off it.

I asked way back in the thread somewhere if anyone could give a single example of anyone having their citizenship revoked under any circumstance whatsoever other than joining a terrorist rape cult. I'm still waiting.

I'm a dual national under similar circumstances to Begum (I didn't know about it until I made enquiries). It brings certain advantages but also the drawback that I could lose my British citizenship if I did something extraordinarily evil. In fact, if I encouraged the murder of a states citizens and agents and they were able to, I'd fully expect them to tell me to fuck right off.

It doesn't bother me one jot.

Plus you (or Yossarian ) could renounce the other citizenship if you wanted to, which would mean you couldn't be stripped of your British citizenship.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Plus you (or Yossarian ) could renounce the other citizenship if you wanted to, which would mean you couldn't be stripped of your British citizenship.

You can't renounce something you don't know about.

And in the case of Begum, you're talking about a 15-year-old at the time she left the UK, so you're asking a 15-year-old to have been familiar with Bangladeshi law and renounced her claim on citizenship of a country she's never been to. Is it reasonable in any way to treat her differently due to her not having renounced a dual citizenship she wasn't even aware of? You seem to think 'yes'. I think a firm 'no'.

And that's before we even consider the fact that Bangladesh has denied that she has a right to citizenship, so this ruling has left her stateless, something that is illegal in international law. This is a grubby ruling.

 

[maomao]

Plus you (or @Yossarian ) could renounce the other citizenship if you wanted to

In order to renounce Bangladeshi citizenship she would have to have a passport to renounce; it's part of the process. The whole process (of getting a passport in order to renounce citizenship) would require funds and access to low level legal advice of some sort. It's not really realistic is it.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Of course, you can claim what you like. And others can come to their own conclusion as to whether or not he represents the same threat as to someone who joined (and, as far as we know, never renounced) a murderous gang of murderers and rapists. None of us can 'know' what Spy or Begum will do, but we can make assessments based on the facts that are known to us. The idea that such fact-based risk assessment can/should be dismissed as conjecture is ridiculous. And it's a complete dead end as a basis for criticising the outcome in this case (not least of all because we don't have all the facts).

All I'm trying to get you to acknowledge is that there is a difference between saying that we know someone may pose a risk and that we know someone definitely does pose a risk. And if you try to claim that you can know someone poses a risk based on limited knowledge of them, the circumstances around them and what their motivations are then you are also claiming that we can all justifiably argue that we know quite a large number of people pose a risk.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

In order to renounce Bangladeshi citizenship she would have to have a passport to renounce; it's part of the process. The whole process (of getting a passport in order to renounce citizenship) would require funds and access to low level legal advice of some sort. It's not really realistic is it.

First and foremost, she'd need to have known about the citizenship in the first place.

How many British teenagers with a Bangladeshi parent know that they are automatically Bangladeshi citizens? I'd bet that most don't have any idea.

There's more than a whiff of racism around this. If one of her parents had been white British and she'd had a non-Bangladeshi name, I'll bet this wouldn't have happened, even though the same argument could have been made.

 

[Athos]

You can't renounce something you don't know about.

And in the case of Begum, you're talking about a 15-year-old at the time she left the UK, so you're asking a 15-year-old to have been familiar with Bangladeshi law and renounced her claim on citizenship of a country she's never been to. Is it reasonable in any way to treat her differently due to her not having renounced a dual citizenship she wasn't even aware of? You seem to think 'yes'. I think a firm 'no'.

And that's before we even consider the fact that Bangladesh has denied that she has a right to citizenship, so this ruling has left her stateless, something that is illegal in international law.

Spy and Yoss do know about it.

I'm not defending that law, it's application in this case, or the outcome (from a legal perspective, I have very little sympathy for her, and think it's probably a good thing she's not in the UK, because of the risk); I've been critical of that. My point is that many of the bases of criticism are unfounded. To me, the legitimate criticisms would be:

With regard to this law generally: The policy argument against two-tier citizenship, because of the social impact. Though I recognise that, in practice, the people significantly impacted appear to be the authors of their own misfortune.

With regard to the legal outcome of this case: The fact that she'll be denied a timely hearing. Though I recognise the tension between two goods - that right, and public safety. And, without the intelligence I can't be sure they're got the balance right in this case.

 

[Athos]

In order to renounce Bangladeshi citizenship she would have to have a passport to renounce; it's part of the process. The whole process (of getting a passport in order to renounce citizenship) would require funds and access to low level legal advice of some sort. It's not really realistic is it.

I'm not sure that, under Bangladeshi law, you'd need a passport to renounce citizenship. Do you have a reference for that, please?

 

[strung out]

I'm not sure that, under Bangladeshi law, you'd need a passport to renounce citizenship. Do you have a reference for that, please?

Requirements for Renunciation of Bangladesh nationality

The following documents are required for renunciation (Cancellation) of Bangladesh nationality and obtain certificate of renunciation from the Embassy:

• Filled-in application form (02 copies) for renunciation of Bangladesh nationality
• Original Bangladesh passport
• Photocopy of Bangladesh passport (hand written 1-5 pages, MRP 1-2 pages)
• Certificate from the foreign nationality

From here: Requirements for Renunciation | Embassy of Bangladesh, Berlin

 

[Athos]

If one of her parents had been white British and she'd had a non-Bangladeshi name, I'll bet this wouldn't have happened, even though the same argument could have been made.

I'm afraid you're just wrong about that. As already pointed out on this thread, it happened to a white boy with two white patents and a non-Bangladeshi name, who was a dual UK/Canadian citizen.

 

[maomao]

First and foremost, she'd need to have known about the citizenship in the first place.

How many British teenagers with a Bangladeshi parent know that they are automatically Bangladeshi citizens? I'd bet that most don't have any idea.

Why not? I'm pretty sure the topic of potential citizenships comes up occasionally in households of people of multiple nationalities. It does in mine, why would they be any different? My dual-heritage five year old has already asked rough questions about her passport and what nationality she is. Not quite that legal or specific but she is only five.

 

[maomao]

I'm afraid you're just wrong about that. As already pointed out on this thread, it happened to a white boy with two white patents and a non-Bangladeshi name, who was a dual UK/Canadian citizen.

He was a genuine soldier though. What if it was a white fifteen year old girl who'd been groomed, abused and lured abroad. Do you think the reaction of the press would have been the same?

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Why not? I'm pretty sure the topic of potential citizenships comes up occasionally in households of people of multiple nationalities. It does in mine, why would they be any different? My dual-heritage five year old has already asked rough questions about her passport and what nationality she is. Not quite that legal or specific but she is only five.

iirc Begum's parents didn't know.

 

[Athos]

Requirements for Renunciation of Bangladesh nationality

The following documents are required for renunciation (Cancellation) of Bangladesh nationality and obtain certificate of renunciation from the Embassy:

• Filled-in application form (02 copies) for renunciation of Bangladesh nationality
• Original Bangladesh passport
• Photocopy of Bangladesh passport (hand written 1-5 pages, MRP 1-2 pages)
• Certificate from the foreign nationality

From here: Requirements for Renunciation | Embassy of Bangladesh, Berlin

Thanks. That seems directly contradictory to what's here: Refworld | Bangladesh: Whether an individual who has renounced citizenship of Bangladesh by acquiring citizenship in Singapore is able to reclaim citizenship; the requirements and procedures for reacquiring citizenship

Which says "In correspondence with the Research Directorate, an official at the Canadian high commission in Dhaka stated that Bangladeshis who are applying for citizenship in a country that does not accept dual citizenship can obtain a renunciation certificate from the Ministry of Home Affairs or from a Bangladeshi embassy/high commission abroad (Canada 10 Jan. 2012). The official added that a person seeking to renounce Bangladeshi citizenship needs only to write a letter to the Ministry of Home Affairs indicating his or her intention and a certificate will be issued (ibid.)."

If I've got time, I'll look at the
Bangladeshi statute.

 

[Buddy Bradley]

He was a genuine soldier though. What if it was a white fifteen year old girl who'd been groomed, abused and lured abroad. Do you think the reaction of the press would have been the same?

Depends, is she slim and pretty?

 

[SpackleFrog]

The children were British citizens.

Fair enough that is relevant so what you're saying is by their actions the govt potentially contributed to the death of a British citizen? In which case yeah I don't dispute that.

 

[cyril_smear]

What would happen if she somehow were able to sneak in to the country? Obviously a yoi, but after thst?

 

[maomao]

Thanks. That seems directly contradictory to what's here: Refworld | Bangladesh: Whether an individual who has renounced citizenship of Bangladesh by acquiring citizenship in Singapore is able to reclaim citizenship; the requirements and procedures for reacquiring citizenship

Which says "In correspondence with the Research Directorate, an official at the Canadian high commission in Dhaka stated that Bangladeshis who are applying for citizenship in a country that does not accept dual citizenship can obtain a renunciation certificate from the Ministry of Home Affairs or from a Bangladeshi embassy/high commission abroad (Canada 10 Jan. 2012). The official added that a person seeking to renounce Bangladeshi citizenship needs only to write a letter to the Ministry of Home Affairs indicating his or her intention and a certificate will be issued (ibid.)."

If I've got time, I'll look at the N
Bangladeshi statute.

Nothing written there suggests that someone who isn't a citizen already is able to renounce it.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It misses the point to think that this is to do with the niceties of Bangladeshi law anyway. It's to do with the equitable, non-discriminatory treatment of people under British law. A very simple declaration that theoretical dual citizenship doesn't count until it has been actively sought out by the person concerned. Until then it should be considered 'dormant' or whatever legal word you might want to use. People can't be expected to know the law of every country in the world.

 

[strung out]

Thanks. That seems directly contradictory to what's here: Refworld | Bangladesh: Whether an individual who has renounced citizenship of Bangladesh by acquiring citizenship in Singapore is able to reclaim citizenship; the requirements and procedures for reacquiring citizenship

Which says "In correspondence with the Research Directorate, an official at the Canadian high commission in Dhaka stated that Bangladeshis who are applying for citizenship in a country that does not accept dual citizenship can obtain a renunciation certificate from the Ministry of Home Affairs or from a Bangladeshi embassy/high commission abroad (Canada 10 Jan. 2012). The official added that a person seeking to renounce Bangladeshi citizenship needs only to write a letter to the Ministry of Home Affairs indicating his or her intention and a certificate will be issued (ibid.)."

If I've got time, I'll look at the N
Bangladeshi statute.

I'm sure it would have been very simple for her to pop a letter in the post to the Bangladesh Ministry of Home Affairs from Syria/Iraq. Not sure what the postal service is like there though.

 

[Athos]

All I'm trying to get you to acknowledge is that there is a difference between saying that we know someone may pose a risk and that we know someone definitely does pose a risk. And if you try to claim that you can know someone poses a risk based on limited knowledge of them, the circumstances around them and what their motivations are then you are also claiming that we can all justifiably argue that we know quite a large number of people pose a risk.

I think you misunderstand risk. Whilst any assessment should be based on known facts, risk it's inherently uncertain; if you know something will happen, that's a certainty, rather than a risk. If you know someone may pose a risk, then there is a risk i.e. a chance that the harm will materialise. Knowing there's a risk is not the same as knowing it will manifest. And, yes, that does mean we all present a risk; it's a matter of assessing the extent of it (based on what we do know, which, can almost never be the whole picture).

 

[Athos]

I'm sure it would have been very simple for her to pop a letter in the post to the Bangladesh Ministry of Home Affairs from Syria/Iraq. Not sure what the postal service is like there though.

Then perhaps she shouldn't have chosen to travel to Syria (to join a murderous rape cult).

 

[Athos]

Nothing written there suggests that someone who isn't a citizen already is able to renounce it.

She is a citizen already. Your confusing citizenship with having a passport.

 

[8ball]

I think you misunderstand risk. Whilst any assessment should be based on known facts, risk it's inherently uncertain; if you know something will happen, that's a certainty, rather than a risk. If you know someone may pose a risk, then there is a risk i.e. a chance that the harm will materialise. Knowing there's a risk is not the same as knowing it will manifest. And, yes, that does mean we all present a risk; it's a matter of assessing the extent of it (based on what we do know, which, can almost never be the whole picture).

Do you honestly think any of this has anything to do with risks of any kind?

 

[Athos]

He was a genuine soldier though. What if it was a white fifteen year old girl who'd been groomed, abused and lured abroad. Do you think the reaction of the press would have been the same?

No, I don't.

 

[Athos]

Do you honestly think any of this has anything to do with risks of any kind?

I don't know the intelligence. I suspect it's a combination of risk and political expediency (as I've said before).

 

[maomao]

Then perhaps she shouldn't have chosen to travel to Syria (to join a murderous rape cult).

Would you say that Kayleigh Haywood who was groomed online, raped and murdered at the age of 15 shouldn't have chosen to meet up with rapists and murderers? Would you say the same about an eleven year old? At what age does coercion and exual abuse by adults completely stop being an extenuating factor?

 

[strung out]

Then perhaps she shouldn't have chosen to travel to Syria (to join a murderous rape cult).

If she hadn't worn those skimpy clothes, then she wouldn't have been targeted by her rapist.

 

[SpackleFrog]

Then perhaps she shouldn't have chosen to travel to Syria (to join a murderous rape cult).

Is she a victim of said rape cult?