British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[Pickman's model]

<taps watch>

 

[scifisam]

There's no moral equivalence needed, either a 15 year is too young to consent or they ain't. Where are you on this one?

As a former 15-year-old girl, I'd say the line is not actually that strict. Lots of 15-year-olds have consensual sex with boys/young men a little older than them. They are not children being abused by other children. They are teenagers who want to have sex, and lots of teenagers do it with other teenagers. 15-year-olds do not generally like being treated like they're children who could not possibly have any sexual desires.

Drawing that hard line, IMO, makes it more difficult for young girls to judge what is wrong. Some countries have romeo and juliet laws - basically, an 18-year-old and a 15-year-old is fine, depending on the law, but 30 and 15, no. R&J laws highlight the fact that it's not just your age that is the issue, but your partner's age - the imbalance which can lead to grooming and abusive relationships rather than teenage love and experimentation.

It's bollocks of course. Begum's Lawyers have claimed she was "groomed" and "trafficked" by IS, stretching the definitions of both terms to busting point and ignoring the fact that tens of thousands of kids with similar backgrounds and pressures don't join ISIS, and that Begum bought her own plane ticket and became a member of the IS morality police (by some accounts).

As you've pointed out, trying to extract some moral equivalence with rape gangs is pretty fucking disgusting. Perhaps these people would be better off reserving their sympathy for the thousands of Yazidi women who were genuinely trafficked into sexual slavery by ISIS.

My daughter's best friends went to school with Begum.

She was groomed. I'm really not sure how being persuaded to join a cult and marry some bloke she didn't know at the age of 15 could not be called grooming.

Trafficked is different - she wasn't kidnapped and sent abroad against her will. It's not necessary to say she was trafficked to concede that she was groomed.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I'm reminded in this case of a quote from the head psychiatrist at Broadmoor. She said that while, of course, thousands of people have abusive childhoods without ending up in Broadmoor, nobody ends up in Broadmoor without first going through an abusive childhood.

It's not excusing Begum to say that her circumstances were a prerequisite for her to be recruited, any more than it excuses the murderers in Broadmoor to say that they wouldn't be there if their parents hadn't abused them. Both still have to take responsibility for what they did. Both can and need to be seen in their wider context to have a hope of understanding how such terrible things happen. And there is understanding to be had here.

 

[mx wcfc]

She was groomed. I'm really not sure how being persuaded to join a cult and marry some bloke she didn't know at the age of 15 could not be called grooming.

Trafficked is different - she wasn't kidnapped and sent abroad against her will. It's not necessary to say she was trafficked to concede that she was groomed.

This is very much the view I have come to. I may have taken a different view at times before, but this country has to take responsibility for her, what has happened to her, and her future. Clearly she should be brought back here - equally clearly, if she does, she is going to do time - that is unavoidable. The fact that this country let her child die in a camp is to this country's shame.

 

[butchersapron]

Them crimes in Syria? Those Syrians? Nah British justice is more important than that and them. Fuck that lot.

 

[butchersapron]

The empire lives on - in your heart.

 

[Athos]

Them crimes in Syria? Those Syrians? Nah British justice is more important than that and them. Fuck that lot.

Quite. How many of those calling for her to brought back were insisting Gary Glitter should be tried here?

 

[butchersapron]

I keep wondering, at what point are Syrians going to make an entrance on all these posts?

 

[SpookyFrank]

Shamima Begum's current situation is doing the Syrian people no end of good of course.

Due process is gonna kick in any day now, at which point this big boss villain can finally be held accountable and Syria's wounds can finally be healed.

 

[butchersapron]

Good of you to decide for them curly. Empire writ in bone and blood.

 

[SpookyFrank]

Good of you to decide for them curly. Empire writ in bone and blood.

Just you that gets to act as spokesman for them then. Seems fair.

 

[butchersapron]

Just you that gets to act as spokesman for them then. Seems fair.

I haven't spoke for anyone beyond myself - pointing out that all empire-liberals like you can see is the empire, and demanding it's writ extend far and wide, victims be damned.

 

[butchersapron]

Phew, that mafeking was a close one eh? Still british laws, none of that fuzzy wuzzy stuff.

 

[CNT36]

Them crimes in Syria? Those Syrians? Nah British justice is more important than that and them. Fuck that lot.

What lot?

 

[butchersapron]

What lot?

Any syrians who might seek to have a voice in this. Or even those who don't. Mesasge is loud and clear - all about the empire and it's rules.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

What lot?

Given the interest in victims of trafficking and grooming on this thread how about the Yazidis? Not one post I’ve seen has expressed concern or demands for justice.

Then there are the allegations that Begum was an active member of the "morality police", and also tried to recruit/groom other young women to join.

it’s unlikely that she could be tried over those alleged activities here.

So that lot for starters.

 

[alsoknownas]

That's the only people to whom they can do it under international law.

For me it's not a question of whether they can do it, but rather whether they should do it. This goes right to the roots of the notion of 'Britishness' being a preserve. I had my British-ness randomly questioned multiple times growing up. I know how fragile of a facility it can be.

As tempting as it might be, we can't just jettison people because we don't like what they stand for, or what they've done. The notion of 'accidental' (dual) nationality is both cruel and ridiculous.

This government is very eager to cancel the Britishness of even long-established citizens - destroy their records, create a climate of hostility, etc., and based on what? Not any sense of fairness or proportion, but on the lasting idea that people of colour don't have a bona fide tenure. If you take a look at how race and citizenship interact through the actions of this government, you'll see that this issue has a significant racist dimension.

 

[CNT36]

Given the interest in victims of trafficking and grooming on this thread how about the Yazidis? Not one post I’ve seen has expressed concern or demands for justice.

Then there are the allegations that Begum was an active member of the "morality police", and also tried to recruit/groom other young women to join.

it’s unlikely that she could be tried over those alleged activities here.

So that lot for starters.

I was wondering if Butcher's lot refered to anyone in particular making those demands for justice or even willing and able to pursue it rather than hypothetical Syrians or Yazidis

 

[Spymaster]

This government is very eager to cancel the Britishness of even long-established citizens - destroy their records, create a climate of hostility, etc., and based on what?

In this case, her 5 year membership of an outfit that raped and murdered their way across Iraq and Syria.

 

[butchersapron]

I was wondering if Butcher's lot refered to anyone in particular making those demands for justice or even willing and able to pursue it rather than hypothetical Syrians or Yazidis

Plenty of local courts across NE Syria ready to try ISIS in the areas where the crimes are alleged to have taken place - it's one of the victories of the revolution. There's even a state still going just round the corner. Not even got a mention though because of those reverse-imperial goggles. (Not you)

 

[butchersapron]

For me it's not a question of whether they can do it, but rather whether they should do it. This goes right to the roots of the notion of 'Britishness' being a preserve. I had my British-ness randomly questioned multiple times growing up. I know how fragile of a facility it can be.

As tempting as it might be, we can't just jettison people because we don't like what they stand for, or what they've done. The notion of 'accidental' (dual) nationality is both cruel and ridiculous.

This government is very eager to cancel the Britishness of even long-established citizens - destroy their records, create a climate of hostility, etc., and based on what? Not any sense of fairness or proportion, but on the lasting idea that people of colour don't have a bona fide tenure. If you take a look at how race and citizenship interact through the actions of this government, you'll see that this issue has a significant racist dimension.

Britishness vs actual murder and rape across syria and iraq. How quaint.

 

[alsoknownas]

In this case, her 5 year membership of an outfit that raped and murdered their way across Iraq and Syria.

I've been trying to relate - as a society we have rapists and murders, unfortunately. It's part of what a society itself is set up to deal with.

 

[alsoknownas]

Britishness vs actual murder and rape across syria and iraq. How quaint.

See above.

 

[Spymaster]

I've been trying to relate - as a society we have rapists and murders, unfortunately. It's part of what a society itself is set up to deal with.

And when they rape and murder here we deal with them here. Would you be happier if the UKG did what France do and hand her over to Iraq for them to deal with?

 

[19force8]

Did I miss something here?

Has someone been arguing that because she's British she (and no doubt others) shouldn't be held to account for their actions?

 

[Spymaster]

Did I miss something here?

Has someone been arguing that because she's British she (and no doubt others) shouldn't be held to account for their actions?

No. But loads of twonks have argued that she should be brought back to the UK and tried here.

 

[LDC]

And being tried here (if she even does tbh) would mean she probably won't be held to account for whatever she did over there.

 

[xenon]

What's the problem with saying, OK, she's British then. But given you're over there,e have committed crimes over there, there you shall stay to face justice. If somehow you make it back here, UK local law applies.

 

[alsoknownas]

And when they rape and murder here we deal with them here. Would you be happier if the UKG did what France do and hand her over to Iraq for them to deal with?

I'm commentating on the relative immutability of citizenship itself, not how criminal acts should be tried. UK citizens are tried abroad under foreign law all the time. Similarly, in limited cases, a Brit can be prosecuted in the Uk for a crime carried out elsewhere. None of that is my point, and I don't actually know whether, for instance Begum should be subject to further prosecution. I just know that she should still be considered British if and where such action takes place.

 

[xenon]

Ah, timing.