British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[butchersapron]

And being tried here (if she even does tbh) would mean she probably won't be held to account for whatever she did over there.

The quiet-imperialism of the well-meaning isn't it.

 

[Spymaster]

I'm commentating on the relative immutability of citizenship itself ...

LBJ's 'two-tier racist system'. Load of old bollocks. Are you able to show a single example of a Home Secretary using this power to strip a citizen not involved in terrorism?

 

[CNT36]

The longer this goes on without a clear outcome the more likely i think the hand over to assad option becomes - it clears up many problems and may offer a number of advantages to the main players here. First off, it's not 'the kurds' who have her, it's the SDF - a politico-military formulation that the US imposed on the turkish syrian PKK in order to receive much wider military support and supply than they had been receiving around the time of kobani as the YPG. It isn't a fully kurdish grouping and it isn't supported by all kurds - in fact it has been used to silence politically dissenting kurdish groups and individuals.

The PKK/SDF is right now in talks with assad about integrating with the Syrian military in order to retain some from of regional autonomy in the north east they currently control after assad bombs the remaining anti-regime forces and civilians to pieces in idlib. Assad has played the foreign angle very well throughout this war. The former handing her over to the latter will help both. The pkk can say that they are taking seriously their role in the assadist reconstruction of the country and helping to punish those who brought such devastation etc. The latter is, i think, unlikely to disappear her into the rape/torture/murder cells as he has to 20 000+ opponents of his regime during the revolution (helped along by ISIS, helped in turn by his security forces). He's much more likely to make her a symbol of magnanimous forgiveness and western hypocrisy in the international spotlight. Of course, he might well have her raped/tortured/disappeared but that's never been the main concern of the PKK. Either way, i think both would perceive that outcome as satisfactory - as might the UK. I was joking when i suggested this last week and was using her to highlight the much larger question of the still ongoing conflict and ISIS' role in it. No longer so sure.

I was just thinking about the Assad option, searched the thread and found this. How likely do you think this is? Why haven't they pushed her onto Assad, the revolution or someone else already just to get rid? Still even now playing both sides?

 

[xenon]

I can't remember now but. Apart from the grandstanding opportunity withdrawing British citizenship presented Javid, is there any reason why had this not been done, she still couldn't be left there. i.e. was it necessary to do this to fend off legal challenges based around the fact she had a British child at the time which would put a responsibility on the UK to repatriate them?

May have answered my own question there.

 

[butchersapron]

I was just thinking about the Assad option, searched the thread and found this. How likely do you think this is? Why haven't they pushed her onto Assad, the revolution or someone else already just to get rid? Still even now playing both sides?

I think the chances have reduced significantly since i posted that, and i think the chances of being handed over to any local court have dissapeared. She's lucky in a sense that she's now in the liberal eye - she'll not have happen to her what's happened to so many others - often as a direct result of the actions she chose to materially support. I don't see any outcome other than being given passage to the UK now. I was just v angry above that, yet again, syrians disappeared in the debate, even pathetically symbolically.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Did I miss something here?

Has someone been arguing that because she's British she (and no doubt others) shouldn't be held to account for their actions?

Not exactly. But a British court can’t easily try her for alleged crimes - morality police membership and activity, grooming others - in Syria.

Plus once she’s back here there is a vanishingly small chance of her being extradited back to Syria to account for her alleged role in actions inflicted on citizens.

Have a look through the thread and see the balance applied by posters to her alleged actions and the victims (working class Syrians) v her rights

 

[Smokeandsteam]

I was just thinking about the Assad option, searched the thread and found this. How likely do you think this is? Why haven't they pushed her onto Assad, the revolution or someone else already just to get rid? Still even now playing both sides?

Isn’t that what France did? Might be wrong

 

[freakydave]

I think that it would have been better if she had never gone in the first place to be completely honest

 

[Athos]

I think that it would have been better if she had never gone in the first place to be completely honest

No shit, Dave.

 

[Athos]

This government is very eager to cancel the Britishness of even long-established citizens - destroy their records, create a climate of hostility, etc., and based on what? Not any sense of fairness or proportion, but on the lasting idea that people of colour don't have a bona fide tenure.

No, not based on the fact that she's a person of colour; based on the fact that she joined a brutal organisation that murders, rapes, and enslaves, and subscribes to an ideology that is a threat to British people of all colours and religions. You might notice that the government doesn't do this to people of colour who are dual nationals who aren't thought to be involved in terrorism, and that it does do it to white people who are e.g. Jack Letts. I've no doubt the government and all our institutions are racist, but the idea that her being stripped of her British citizenship is evidence of racism, or that the policy is racist per se (any more than any policy based on nationality) is absurd.

 

[Pickman's model]

I think that it would have been better if she had never gone in the first place to be completely honest

Think about all the fun Spymaster has had on this thread. And how none of that would have happened if she hadn't gone.

 

[butchersapron]

No, not based on the fact that she's a person of colour; based on the fact that she joined a brutal organisation that murders, rapes, and enslaves, and subscribes to an ideology that is a threat to British people of all colours and religions. You might notice that the government doesn't do this to people of colour who are dual nationals who aren't thought to be involved in terrorism, and that it does do it to white people who are e.g. Jack Letts. I've no doubt the government and all our institutions are racist, but the idea that her being stripped of her British citizenship is evidence of racism, or that the policy is racist per se (any more than any policy based on nationality) is absurd.

Sally Jones - they pretty much put her on a kill list. And she got killed.

 

[Spymaster]

Isn’t that what France did? Might be wrong

France sent them to Iraq.

 

[Athos]

Sally Jones - they pretty much put her on a kill list. And she got killed.

Quite. It's just whiny liberal bullshit. There's plenty of reasons to object to the state being able to do this, but the idea that it's any more racist than the idea of nationality upon which states are based, or that British people deserve British justice (and fuck justice by and and for those they've wronged) are two of the poorest.

 

[Pickman's model]

Quite. It's just whiny liberal bullshit. There's plenty of reasons to object to the state being able to do this, but the idea that it's any more racist than the idea of nationality upon which states are based, or that British people deserve British justice (and fuck justice by and and for those they've wronged) are two of the poorest.

I'm not sure people resident in the UK deserve British justice which may be legally correct but is so rarely just.

 

[Athos]

I'm not sure people resident in the UK deserve British justice which may be legal but is so rarely just.

The irony being that the same people claiming HMG has acted in a racist way on this issue are those doubting the ability of other jurisdictions to deliver justice.

 

[Red Cat]

I think the chances have reduced significantly since i posted that, and i think the chances of being handed over to any local court have dissapeared. She's lucky in a sense that she's now in the liberal eye - she'll not have happen to her what's happened to so many others - often as a direct result of the actions she chose to materially support. I don't see any outcome other than being given passage to the UK now. I was just v angry above that, yet again, syrians disappeared in the debate, even pathetically symbolically.

Thanks for bringing people back into sight.

You did this also with Bristol this week.

 

[freakydave]

No, not based on the fact that she's a person of colour; based on the fact that she joined a brutal organisation that murders, rapes, and enslaves, and subscribes to an ideology that is a threat to British people of all colours and religions. You might notice that the government doesn't do this to people of colour who are dual nationals who aren't thought to be involved in terrorism, and that it does do it to white people who are e.g. Jack Letts. I've no doubt the government and all our institutions are racist, but the idea that her being stripped of her British citizenship is evidence of racism, or that the policy is racist per se (any more than any policy based on nationality) is absurd.

It is a bit dodgy to me how they used the fact that her family is from Bangladesh and tried to get Bangladesh to take responsibility for her. Racism is maybe not the right term, but it does feel like her citizenship was compromised because of her background, which is a bit off

 

[Spymaster]

It is a bit dodgy to me how they used the fact that her family is from Bangladesh and tried to get Bangladesh to take responsibility for her.

They didn't try to get Bangladesh to take responsibility for her, they just abrogated their own. Rightly so.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

No, not based on the fact that she's a person of colour; based on the fact that she joined a brutal organisation that murders, rapes, and enslaves, and subscribes to an ideology that is a threat to British people of all colours and religions. You might notice that the government doesn't do this to people of colour who are dual nationals who aren't thought to be involved in terrorism, and that it does do it to white people who are e.g. Jack Letts. I've no doubt the government and all our institutions are racist, but the idea that her being stripped of her British citizenship is evidence of racism, or that the policy is racist per se (any more than any policy based on nationality) is absurd.

Her nationality is British. It is racist to discriminate against her on the basis of her ethnicity - ie the origin of her ancestors - and in so doing to create different classes of citizenship based purely on ethnicity. How is this so hard to understand?

You can bet your arse that islamists seeking to recruit more Begums will understand this point well enough.
See, to them you are not British. They will never accept you as British.

 

[xenon]

How come no one's making these arguments against removal of British citizenship about the likes of Alex Koty?

 

[Spymaster]

Her nationality is British. It is racist to discriminate against her on the basis of her ethnicity - ie the origin of her ancestors - and in so doing to create different classes of citizenship based purely on ethnicity. How is this so hard to understand?

They are not doing that. Your argument might hold water if you could point to examples of anyone of another ethnicity in the same position being treated differently, but you can't.

 

[freakydave]

They didn't try to get Bangladesh to take responsibility for her, they just abrogated their own. Rightly so.

I thought that because she was eligible for Bangladesh citizenship was a part of the legal case to strip her of UK citizenship?

 

[Spymaster]

I thought that because she was eligible for Bangladesh citizenship was a part of the legal case to strip her of UK citizenship?

That's correct but nobody has asked anything of Bangladesh. HMG have just told her to fuck off.

 

[maomao]

How come no one's making these arguments against removal of British citizenship about the likes of Alex Koty?

Teenage girls make better hate figures for some reason. Which is why there's no thread about Koty (who is he?).

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Her nationality is British. It is racist to discriminate against her on the basis of her ethnicity - ie the origin of her ancestors - and in so doing to create different classes of citizenship based purely on ethnicity. How is this so hard to understand?

It’s really not that it’s hard to understand. It’s that people, me included, think you are wrong. If you want to stand this claim up - that race is the decisive factor here - you are going to need to evidence your claim.

 

[Spymaster]

Teenage girls make better hate figures for some reason.

Yeah. That's exactly what this is all about.

 

[Athos]

Her nationality is British. It is racist to discriminate against her on the basis of her ethnicity - ie the origin of her ancestors - and in so doing to create different classes of citizenship based purely on ethnicity. How is this so hard to understand?

The differential treatment is not based her background or ethnicity; it's her legal nationality. There are lots of terrorists with the same background and ethnicity who've not had their British nationality stripped because they don't have a second legal nationality. And examples of people with different backgrounds and ethnicity who have been treated the same as her. Your claim simply doesn't stand scrutiny.

 

[freakydave]

That's correct but nobody has asked anything of Bangladesh. HMG has just told her to fuck off.

But it should not matter. She is a British citizen (a British child when she joined ISIS) so she should be treated the same as someone with no family connection to anywhere by British law

edit: I think. That seems like equality to me, seems a bit unfair that her family being Bangladeshi is a part of how she is treated

 

[Spymaster]

I disagree