British IS schoolgirl 'wants to return home'

[LDC]

I think she probably belongs in somewhere like Broadmoor (the orchard?) for the moment. But I do think she was groomed.

She belongs in a high security psychiatric unit? Why?

And thinking she was groomed, on what evidence?

 

[maomao]

She belongs in a high security psychiatric unit? Why?

Because I don't think the prison system is capable of dealing with complex cases like this

And thinking she was groomed, on what evidence?

Leaving her family to travel to a warzone and marry a stranger after a long period of intense communication with Isis recruiters. If Isis recruiters aren't grooming what do you think they are doing? Explaining the facts and offering choices?

 

[LDC]

Leaving her family to travel to a warzone and marry a stranger after a long period of instense communication with Isis recruiters. If Isis recruiters aren't grooming what do you think they are doing? Explaining the facts and offering choices?

'Grooming' can mean a lot of things, so I'm not sure it's not that useful unless that's defined tbh, and it's a highly emotive term too.

I do have some sympathy with the possibility that she was vulnerable to that though, but I have no idea how much that was a factor in her case. She obviously had some level of agency and choice though, and yes, while the IS recruiters will present the idealized situation of where she was heading to, she also can't have been in any way ignorant of what was going on there. And some of her post capture interviews back that up, as do some of the reports of what she did when she was there. She didn't exactly spend the time cowering in the family home did she?

Do you think the age of criminal responsibility is wrong then, and it should be raised?

I've met a few male IS fighters, all of whom were as thick as two short planks, and probably by some definitions were a bit vulnerable, and were probably in the position there were in though a mix of factors including (for some) bad luck, ideological choices, religious belief, being recruited, being poor, etc. But Europeans had to put a lot of effort in to get to Syria back then, which in some ways proves they have more agency and choice than some villager in rural Iraq who ended up joining when IS took control of his area.

 

[maomao]

I'm going to drop out of this conversation now because at 13:00 I have an interview for a PGCE course which will hopefully very soon have me training in East London secondary schools and in a position of care and responsibility for dozens of potential Shamima Begums among others.

It's not an easy case and the amount of public exposure she's had compared to other Isis fighters won't do much to help her.

 

[not-bono-ever]

good luck maomao

 

[Spymaster]

I'm going to drop out of this conversation now because at 13:00 I have an interview for a PGCE course ...

Good luck

 

[LDC]

I'm going to drop out of this conversation now because at 13:00 I have an interview for a PGCE course which will hopefully very soon have me training in East London secondary schools and in a position of care and responsibility for dozens of potential Shamima Begums among others.

It's not an easy case and the amount of public exposure she's had compared to other Isis fighters won't do much to help her.

Yeah hope it goes well.

 

[Athos]

In 99% of cases no. I'm thinking of some of the underage girls that were procurers for Epstein. They committed horrible crimes while over the age of criminal responsibility but they were victims.

I think she needs secure psychological intervention to protect the public from her while her state of mind can be assessed. It may be that she needs to be under lock and key permanently but I'd rather that decision was made by psychologists with experience in the area of grooming rather than the usual probation system.

I also think the focus on this one particular case is a bit disturbing for obvious reasons.

I agree that prosecution wouldn't be appropriate in most cases. But, for me, her case is exceptional; I believe that, if she ever comes to the UK, she should be prosecuted (albeit it should be possible for her then to raise the alleged grooming as a defence and/or mitigation). You've still not answered the question, though. Given it appears that she has committed a crime, do you think she should she be prosecuted is she comes back to the UK? (Bearing in mind that the guff about her being detained by psychologists has zero chance of happening - there's just no appropriate legal mechanism.)

 

[bellaozzydog]

This is starting to feel like a “gun thread”

I fear the same posters squealing string her up are also the types claiming the inside line on weapons know how

we certainly have some Middle East, cross border travel, ground truthers in our midst

 

[8ball]

This is starting to feel like a “gun thread”

I fear the same posters squealing string her up also claim the inside line on weapons know how

I haven't once said string her up or anything like that, and I have the finest collection of guns, knives and uncategorised implements of death in the East Midlands.

 

[bellaozzydog]

'Grooming' can mean a lot of things, so I'm not sure it's not that useful unless that's defined tbh, and it's a highly emotive term too.

I do have some sympathy with the possibility that she was vulnerable to that though, but I have no idea how much that was a factor in her case. She obviously had some level of agency and choice though, and yes, while the IS recruiters will present the idealized situation of where she was heading to, she also can't have been in any way ignorant of what was going on there. And some of her post capture interviews back that up, as do some of the reports of what she did when she was there. She didn't exactly spend the time cowering in the family home did she?

Do you think the age of criminal responsibility is wrong then, and it should be raised?

I've met a few male IS fighters, all of whom were as thick as two short planks, and probably by some definitions were a bit vulnerable, and were probably in the position there were in though a mix of factors including (for some) bad luck, ideological choices, religious belief, being recruited, being poor, etc. But Europeans had to put a lot of effort in to get to Syria back then, which in some ways proves they have more agency and choice than some villager in rural Iraq who ended up joining when IS took control of his area.

did you citizens arrest them

 

[A380]

Serious post.

Practically if she does make it back to the UK, which presumably could be achieved for not much money with a private team to get to the border and then to an airport in Turkey or Iran both of whom would be glad to stick her on a UK bound plane to avoid the issue. Once here the citizenship could be hoyed into the long grass. ( technical legal term) as I assume the CPS special cases team, or whatever they are called now, could get several charges to stick resulting In a significant sentence. By the time she had done that the arguments would be resolved and perhaps no one would care that much about it?

 

[Teaboy]

Serious post.

Practically if she does make it back to the UK, which presumably could be achieved for not much money with a private team to get to the border and then to an airport in Turkey or Iran both of whom would be glad to stick on a UK bound plane to avoid the issue. Once here the citizenship could be hoyed into the long grass. ( technical legal term) as I assume the CPS special cases team, or whatever they are called now, could get several charges to stick resulting I’d a significant sentence. By the time she had done that the arguments would be resolved and perhaps no one would care that much about it?

I'm by no means a legal expert but I don't think our laws around this sort of action are very good. They were probably made at a time when going off to fight in foreign wars was a posh mercenary thing and the law makers weren't about to criminalise that.

I think one of the problems here is that she will likely face very little in the way 'punishment' from UK courts. Whether that is right or wrong, I'm staying out of.

 

[A380]

Less serious post.

I saw an excellent frother trap on Facebook yesterday. Someone posted the picture below- which surprised me knowing them. Then replied to those that liked it or commented in support “I surprised you support Begum coming back to the UK...”

I’ve put it behind a spoiler, not because it’s violent or anything, just so some of the more irony resistant on here don’t get in a spin.

Spoiler

 

[LDC]

did you citizens arrest them

"In the name of Urban75 I arrest you for crimes against humanity / detain you for some intense therapy and support." (Delete as appropriate.)

No, they were well and truly fucked already.

 

[cyril_smear]

In 99% of cases no. I'm thinking of some of the underage girls that were procurers for Epstein. They committed horrible crimes while over the age of criminal responsibility but they were victims.

I think she needs secure psychological intervention to protect the public from her while her state of mind can be assessed. It may be that she needs to be under lock and key permanently but I'd rather that decision was made by psychologists with experience in the area of grooming rather than the usual probation system.

I also think the focus on this one particular case is a bit disturbing for obvious reasons.

How will they go about protecting her from the public? I think there will be a lot of angry people... even if they don't attack her personally I could foresee attacks on property, family members etc.

 

[Pickman's model]

How will they go about protecting her from the public? I think there will be a lot of angry people... even if they don't attack her personally I could foresee attacks on property, family members etc.

people will have to work hard if they want to have a go at her dad.

 

[cyril_smear]

people will have to work hard if they want to have a go at her dad.

Go on?

 

[Pickman's model]

Go on?

he doesn't live in the uk

 

[Spymaster]

Go on?

He's in Bangladesh

 

[Spymaster]

.

 

[Pickman's model]

Less serious post.

I saw an excellent frother trap on Facebook yesterday. Someone posted the picture below- which surprised me knowing them. Then replied to those that liked it or commented in support “I surprised you support Begum coming back to the UK...”

I’ve put it behind a spoiler, not because it’s violent or anything, just so some of the more irony resistant on here don’t get in a spin.

Spoiler

View attachment 222632

there will be other deportations

Spoiler

postcards of the future #1

 

[LDC]

He's in Bangladesh

How much did you love being able to post that?!

 

[Spymaster]

How much did you love being able to post that?!

Served up on a plate with all the trimmings

 

[Athos]

Serious post.

Practically if she does make it back to the UK, which presumably could be achieved for not much money with a private team to get to the border and then to an airport in Turkey or Iran both of whom would be glad to stick her on a UK bound plane to avoid the issue. Once here the citizenship could be hoyed into the long grass. ( technical legal term) as I assume the CPS special cases team, or whatever they are called now, could get several charges to stick resulting In a significant sentence. By the time she had done that the arguments would be resolved and perhaps no one would care that much about it?

If she gets back (and don't underestimate the logistical challenges of that, or the fact that there might still be an appeal by the Home Sec), undoubtedly she could be prosecuted. But, if found guilty (which is likely) the sentence would be relatively short (under five years). In the meantime, the case against the Home Sec's decision would carry on. If it decided that stripping her of her nationality was unlawful, she'd be released at the end of her sentence. If it was lawful, then, after her sentence, she'd probably go to some sort of immigration detention, but, either way, she wouldn't be sent back to where she is now or to Bangladesh. Ultimately' I suspect that she'd have to be released from that relatively quickly.

At any point she's released, she could be made subject to a TPIM, and probably covert surveillance. But, knowing that, if she was determined and used a little sense, they'd not stop her committing terrorist acts in the UK.

 

[dylanredefined]

Just going to put this out there:



It's a bloody long thread (over 250 tweets), but it's extraordinarily insightful.

The TL/DR - all this talk of mass murder, slavery, rape jihad, traitors, etc. is one side of ISIS's propaganda & recruitment strategy, there is another side. One side is designed to recruit enemies and increase the alienation of Muslims in western societies, the other side we don't see designed to capitalise on that alienation.

If you are indulging in acts of inhumanity mercy is often in short supply.

 

[Red Cat]

Its bollocks is what it is. Firstly, using the the victims of rape gangs for ‘satire’ is vile. Another example of how worthless their lives are, that they can be summoned up as satire to make a shit political point.

Secondly, the aim: a blatant attempt to draw some sort of moral equivalence. To absolve Begum of any kind of personal responsibility and to suggest everything is just completely determined by external conditions is just garbage. The attempt to portray those who question that piss poor logic as racist thickos isn’t worthy of debate

Racism can be subtle, as can sexism, I think the way that 'race' and gender and class shape how adult (responsible for their actions, a threat) a child or young person is seen has been well observed. I do think it's something we need to be aware of.

I thought about Begum the other day when I was listening to the radio on the way to work, there was a programme about gangs and grooming and the ex-gang member said ( I think) what gets missed is the desire of the groomed young person for a solution, they're actively seeking something. It's the relationship between the person seeking something and the people who appear to be offering a solution to that.

 

[butchersapron]

Racism can be subtle, as can sexism, I think the way that 'race' and gender and class shape how adult (responsible for their actions, a threat) a child or young person is seen has been well observed. I do think it's something we need to be aware of.

I thought about Begum the other day when I was listening to the radio on the way to work, there was a programme about gangs and grooming and the ex-gang member said ( I think) what gets missed is the desire of the groomed young person for a solution, they're actively seeking something. It's the relationship between the person seeking something and the people who appear to be offering a solution to that.

This is spot on but what sticks in the craw is the response some people have had to this case versus say 15 year old loyalist in rathcoole.

 

[Athos]

... what sticks in the craw is the response some people have had to this case versus say 15 year old loyalist in rathcoole.

How so?

 

[butchersapron]

How so?

Grooming.