"Blacked up" Morris dancers forced to flee during performance

[Idris2002]

I spent a damn good year in Birmingham, about a decade ago. It doesn't deserve the reputation it has at all.

 

[Treacle Toes]

But of course your a terrible racist if you critcise any non europeacentric culture but morris dancing being traditional english is fair comment.

Good grief. Do you actually believe this is true? It sounds like DM-esque frothing bullshit to me.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Brother has just moved up to West Brom for a job and he's loving it and the city.

That's technically the Black Country but close enough!

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Having lived in Birmingham, I could have a pop at it 50 times a day for the rest of my life and I'd still not be approaching peak abuse.

Pathetic.

 

[brogdale]

That's technically the Black Country but close enough!

Here we go....

 

[SpookyFrank]

My only issue would be 'how fucking stupid are the Morris dancers to go into Birmingham?'

I was in Birmingham yesterday on my bi-annual visit, and the same question could be asked of me - Birmingham is, was, and always will be an utter fucking shit hole of a place, it can never and will never change, apart from getting worse, so why do otherwise sane, sentient people decide every few years to 'give Birmingham a try' as it might have become somehow less shit.

thorough as ever Sirena.

It hasn't. It's as shit as ever. Fucking Allepo looks good compared to Birmingham. And Birmingham stinks of piss...

Even by my standards this is a bit over the top. Birmingham has much to recommend it.

I know people who have relocated, with considerable difficulty, from Syria to Birmingham. They don't seem to agree that it's worse than Aleppo.

 

[Smokeandsteam]

Fox news did claim it was a no go area.
Leading to mostly people making jokes about how truly awful Brimingham is

It backfired spectacularly on Fox as the City responded with biting wit and good grace which never fails to amaze me given the amount of clueless abuse, criticism and ignorance we get from people who know nothing about the place.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I think most people who come out with the "Birmingham is a shithole" line are basing it on the one from 10/15 years ago. And back then, they'd have been right, it was dreadful

Totally different place now though...

 

[Virtual Blue]

I thought they were meant to be representing miners.

 

[lazythursday]

Here's the Britannia Coconut Dancers again, erasing their identities. Or maybe dressed as sweeps.

I live near (but have thankfully avoided) the annual parading of the Bacup Coconutters, but I know they fiercely claim it's linked to a long history of quarrying and nothing to do with blacking up. There's virtually an annual row where someone from outside of the area accuses them of being racist, and all that does is make them cling to their 'tradition' more vehemently. The event's about the only thing that gets people visiting this cut-off and bleak area of East Lancs, so people from over there defend it quite passionately. As time goes by though it feels as though it's becoming increasingly a cause celebre for being anti-political correctness, and therefore taking on a more right-wing context.

 

[butchersapron]

I think most people who come out with the "Birmingham is a shithole" line are basing it on the one from 10/15 years ago. And back then, they'd have been right, it was dreadful

Totally different place now though...

Bingo.

To go back to the disguise thing, the Rebekah rioters blackened their faces for actual genuine unambiguous disguise. Re-enactments generally cover this aspect by doing this:



Would people consider that to be blacking up the same way as those in the video or those border sides or whatever they're called.

 

[two sheds]

I think most people who come out with the "Birmingham is a shithole" line are basing it on the one from 10/15 years ago. And back then, they'd have been right, it was dreadful

Totally different place now though...

I couldn't believe the difference after they did up round New Street, turned it from a nasty dirty diesel traffic atmosphere you could cut with anything blunt to a pleasant walkabout city centre. That must be 30 years ago, mind.

 

[JimW]

That's technically the Black Country but close enough!

I realise, but he gets into town to because he likes it so much.

 

[brogdale]

Bingo.

To go back to the disguise thing, the Rebekah rioters blackened their faces for actual genuine unambiguous disguise. Re-enactments generally cover this aspect by doing this:

View attachment 98513

Would people consider that to be blacking up the same way as those in the video or those border sides or whatever they're called.

I suppose the Rebekah people are attempting to realistically portray an historical event, like re-enactment societies (?), rather than just perpetuate a traditional aspect of 'costume'.

 

[seventh bullet]

Again, surprising.
Anyway...on with the thread, eh?

I think you're very touchy. Why not this thread. I made a flippant remark on class (with more than one grain of truth) based on the pun you made. We can do this all day if you like?

 

[gosub]

This from, possibly, the world expert on such things

"What we see here is a direct clash between two different national traditions, one American and one British. The American consists of blacking up white people to impersonate black people for entertainment, often with connotations of condescension or mockery. This is, then, a tradition which could credibly be described as racist. The British one consists of blacking up white people to erase their everyday identity and turn them into symbolic figures of seasonal festivity, justice or rebellion: the overriding connotation is one of transgression of norms, and is not racist.

The problem is created when globalisation (which in this case, as often happens, means Americanisation) imposes the first set of reference points onto the second. It is the worse in that Border Morris, the tradition which blacks up, was reborn in the 1970s as the most dynamic and popular current branch of the Morris Dance family, playing up wild and transgressive traditional symbolism: it is itself a radical and counter-cultural performance art form.

There is no easy answer to this problem. It would be nice if those who make the accusation of racism against Border Morris could learn the difference in the histories from which each derive.

It is more likely, however, that the path of least resistance will be taken, and the dancers wear black masks, or paint their faces white, green or red to achieve the distancing effect, instead of blacking up; which would certainly preserve the basic symbolism, while satisfying those who relate blacked-up faces to different associations.

With every good wish,

Ronald Hutton"

The Black and White Minstrel Show (TV Series 1958–1978) - Full Cast & Crew - IMDb

 

[brogdale]

I think you're very touchy. Why not this thread. I made a flippant remark on class (with more than one grain of truth) based on the pun you made. We can do this all day if you like?

I made no pun; I suggested that there are other ways of concealing the face without causing possible offence.
You chose to take the opportunity of comment that the people pictured were naughty brats.
No doubt you have your own reasons for doing so.
If that analysis reveals me as touchy I'll just have to live with that.

 

[butchersapron]

I suppose the Rebekah people are attempting to realistically portray an historical event, like re-enactment societies (?), rather than just perpetuate a traditional aspect of 'costume'.

What i'm suggesting here is that if, as the border sides claim, their blacking up is to re-enact a form of historical disguise, then they have the option of doing it in a way that doesn't involve full face blacking by some form of commercial greasepaint - like the people in the pic above who simply rubbed a bit of dirt or coal dust on their face, leaving them recognisably white but disguised. That would be both more sensible and probably more historically accurate. This doesn't touch on other groups, the ones with the 'moorish' associations or whatever of course.

 

[Athos]

Bingo.

To go back to the disguise thing, the Rebekah rioters blackened their faces for actual genuine unambiguous disguise. Re-enactments generally cover this aspect by doing this:

View attachment 98513

Would people consider that to be blacking up the same way as those in the video or those border sides or whatever they're called.

There, the difference is that the face painting was unequivocally as a disguise, whereas the origin of the tradition within morris dancing isn't settled.

 

[Sirena]

The Black and White Minstrel Show (TV Series 1958–1978) - Full Cast & Crew - IMDb

I'm not sure of your point but the Black and White Minstrels was in the style of American vaudeville 'coon' shows or minstrel shows

"Far less well represented in this collection than vaudeville, the minstrel show was the most popular form of public amusement in the United States from the 1840s through the 1870s. It virtually ended, in its original form, by 1896, although vestiges lasted well into the twentieth century. Much humor in later comedy forms originated in minstrelsy and adapted itself to new topics and circumstances. The minstrel show also provided American burlesque and other variety forms with a prototypical three-part format. The minstrel show began with a "walk around" with a verbal exchange between the "end" men and the interlocutor. An "olio," or variety section, followed. Finally, a one-act skit completed the show.

​

For much of its history, the minstrel show was presented by white performers in blackface. This tradition of caricaturing blacks helped perpetuate various widely-held stereotypes about African Americans. Blackface was also used by white performers to express opinions, desires, and attitudes that called into question existing systems of authority and social order. This satirical use of blackface has antecedents in the folk and ritual practices of medieval and renaissance Europe. Such a disguise has long allowed the performer of European-derived dramatic forms a certain socially-sanctioned freedom to say things that would normally be considered off limits.

After the Civil War, all-black performing troupes made a significant contribution to the minstrel show, but they had little success in realistically depicting African-American life. When playing to white, segregated audiences, all-black minstrel troupes satisfied audiences' biased expectations by using recognized stereotypes. At the same time, they tried to invest those stereotypes with new or enriched meanings."

 

[Athos]

What i'm suggesting here is that if, as the border sides claim, their blacking up is to re-enact a form of historical disguise, then they have the option of doing it in a way that doesn't involve full face blacking by some form of commercial greasepaint - like the people in the pic above who simply rubbed a bit of dirt or coal dust on their face, leaving them recognisably white but disguised. That would be both more sensible and probably more historically accurate. This doesn't touch on other groups, the ones with the 'moorish' associations or whatever of course.

Not convinced that, all long as it suspected that the origin of the practice of painting faces black within morris is racist, such a subtle change makes all that much difference. Easier to go for a different colour.

 

[seventh bullet]

I made no pun; I suggested that there are other ways of concealing the face without causing possible offence.
You chose to take the opportunity of comment that the people pictured were naughty brats.
No doubt you have your own reasons for doing so.
If that analysis reveals me as touchy I'll just have to live with that.

The pic was of masked up kids that I couldn't take seriously nor the police probably, which is what you were referring to. Again you do seem very offended for dilettante rioters. I think you need take a step outside, you might not only find tabloid readers.

 

[brogdale]

Not convinced that, all long as it suspected that the origin of the practice of painting faces black within morris is racist, such a subtle change makes all that much difference. Easier to go for a different colour.

Or an old stocking; old-school bank-robber stylee?

 

[butchersapron]

Not convinced that, all long as it suspected that the origin of the practice of painting faces black within morris is racist, such a subtle change makes all that much difference. Easier to go for a different colour.

I'm not quite following what you're saying here. Just to make clear, i'm not even saying that the border sides should do as the rebekah re-enactors did, just that if, as they claim, they are doing it in the manner they do to be historically accurate, then a) they probably should be looking like the people in my pic, not the way they do and so b) they have made a deliberate and ongoing choice to do it that way today despite no compelling reason to do so - at least none in line with the justifications offered.

 

[brogdale]

The pic was of masked up kids that I couldn't take seriously nor the police probably, which is what you were referring to. Again you do seem very offended for dilettante rioters. I think you need take a step outside, you might not only find tabloid readers.

Much affective projection here.

 

[seventh bullet]

Much affective projection here.

What is affective projection?

 

[sunnysidedown]

Blacking up around here has it's history as a disguise used by poachers amongst others, It's been celebrated as part of Plough Monday since the 1400's where 'blacking up' was used by the farm workers to hide their identity from their employers.

Plough Monday is the first Monday after Epiphany, or Twelfth Night. Plough Monday was an important ritual for agricultural workers in the east of England for centuries, providing the opportunity to make some money at a difficult time of year. In medieval times the ploughboys were supposed to return to work on Plough Monday, the start of the new ploughing season. Instead the plough was paraded through the streets with the aim to extort money from wealthy landowners.

link

The BFI site has a short clip here of a more recent re-enactment:

Watch Plough Monday in Cambridgeshire online

It's Plough Monday today btw.

 

[treelover]

Leaving aside the complications of this particular issue, i think it is time we we were less dismissive of our traditions, most other countries cherish them, fund them, teach in schools, etc.

in fact there is a debate why so many progressives dislike many traditions, Orwell wrote about this.

 

[Idris2002]

The Black and White Minstrel Show (TV Series 1958–1978) - Full Cast & Crew - IMDb

Thatcher's favourite TV show (really - she was once asked what her fave telly was, and replied "the Black and White Minstrel Show").

 

[treelover]

Blacking up around here has it's history as a disguise used by poachers amongst others, It's been celebrated as part of Plough Monday since the 1400's where 'blacking up' was used by the farm workers to hide their identity from their employers.

Plough Monday is the first Monday after Epiphany, or Twelfth Night. Plough Monday was an important ritual for agricultural workers in the east of England for centuries, providing the opportunity to make some money at a difficult time of year. In medieval times the ploughboys were supposed to return to work on Plough Monday, the start of the new ploughing season. Instead the plough was paraded through the streets with the aim to extort money from wealthy landowners.

link

The BFI site has a short clip here of a more recent re-enactment:

Watch Plough Monday in Cambridgeshire online

It's Plough Monday today btw.

Happy Plough Monday!