"Blacked up" Morris dancers forced to flee during performance

[redsquirrel]

Tradition doesn't have to be set in stone.

They can't be set in stone.

 

[craigxcraig]

One NY i saw Dead Head Morris, whilst in Whitstable - they do a borders style dance and was pretty nuts to watch. They were black faced - there was also a guy with an upside colander on his head with brussel sprouts hanging off!

 

[littlebabyjesus]

It's not like other parts of the costume haven't changed over the years, if it dates back to the 14th century the top hats and waistcoats will be later too, so just adapt again. Tradition doesn't have to be set in stone.

Any 'tradition' argument is balls anyway. As Manter posted earlier, it's a mishmash of all kinds of things, many of them modern inventions.

I very much like the attitude of the organisers of the Hastings Jack in the Green. Traditional? Well, kind of. It was started in the 70s irrc, and the organisers don't make any claims to any kind of authenticity at all. It draws on some traditions, but it also makes up a bunch of stuff, and it's open about what it is - an excuse to drink and sing and dance and turn things upside down for a few hours in the year.

 

[Gromit]

In Catalonia one of the three kings is blacked up. I never understood why they don't just use a black man, but it seems they don't.

Why is it that Dick Whittingham is played by a woman and panto dames men?

 

[Santino]

Why is it that Dick Whittingham is played by a woman and panto dames men?

Fuck off, that's why.

 

[Sirena]

thorough as ever Sirena.

This from, possibly, the world expert on such things

"What we see here is a direct clash between two different national traditions, one American and one British. The American consists of blacking up white people to impersonate black people for entertainment, often with connotations of condescension or mockery. This is, then, a tradition which could credibly be described as racist. The British one consists of blacking up white people to erase their everyday identity and turn them into symbolic figures of seasonal festivity, justice or rebellion: the overriding connotation is one of transgression of norms, and is not racist.

The problem is created when globalisation (which in this case, as often happens, means Americanisation) imposes the first set of reference points onto the second. It is the worse in that Border Morris, the tradition which blacks up, was reborn in the 1970s as the most dynamic and popular current branch of the Morris Dance family, playing up wild and transgressive traditional symbolism: it is itself a radical and counter-cultural performance art form.

There is no easy answer to this problem. It would be nice if those who make the accusation of racism against Border Morris could learn the difference in the histories from which each derive.

It is more likely, however, that the path of least resistance will be taken, and the dancers wear black masks, or paint their faces white, green or red to achieve the distancing effect, instead of blacking up; which would certainly preserve the basic symbolism, while satisfying those who relate blacked-up faces to different associations.

With every good wish,

Ronald Hutton"

 

[Pickman's model]

Why is it that Dick Whittingham is played by a woman and panto dames men?

There is no such character as dick whittingham.

 

[killer b]

Wiki?

Phew....

I can you tell that I'm pretty sure that those who partake believe the tradition, and that those who do Morris dancing but not the blackface version believe the tradition - and yes, I did wince the first, second and third time I saw them...

And no, i'm not a Morris dancer nor in their circle.

I know they believe it. It's more comfortable for them to believe that what you're doing is a centuries old tradition of disguising yourselves from puritans or whatever, rather than a centuries old tradition of dressing to look like black men.

But as the academic research summarised in the page I linked to suggests, it's an explanation most likely dreamed up by Cecil Sharp in the early 20th century.

 

[Stanley Edwards]

I don't know anything about morris dancing but does anyone actually think that morris dancers do this to be racially provocative or whatever?

Nobody knows why the blacked-up faces, so no.

Borders Morris is from the welsh borders where a lot of open cast mines and charcoal makers operated. Many names from the area translate as 'black faced'. Could just as easily be that rather than any disguise, or attempt to look North African. Nobody knows for sure. Wiki mentions a set of statues of Morris dancers produced in Germany in the 15th Century which does feature a single black/African looking figurine.

Whilst I don't think any Morris dancer is being intentionally racist, they can be a little too 'England for the English' IME.

 

[Red Sky]

Is there not a difference between "blacking up" and painting your face black?

 

[Sirena]

Not to mention the role of the chimney sweep in folk celebrations

Chimney Sweep Festivities in England -

 

[seventh bullet]

Other ways to cover face to avoid being done.

View attachment 98461

Naughty brats.

 

[killer b]

Here's the Britannia Coconut Dancers again, erasing their identities. Or maybe dressed as sweeps.

 

[Sirena]

Here's the Britannia Coconut Dancers again, erasing their identities. Or maybe dressed as sweeps.

That's a different thing.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

What we see here is a direct clash between two different national traditions, one American and one British. The American consists of blacking up white people to impersonate black people for entertainment, often with connotations of condescension or mockery. This is, then, a tradition which could credibly be described as racist. The British one consists of blacking up white people to erase their everyday identity and turn them into symbolic figures of seasonal festivity, justice or rebellion: the overriding connotation is one of transgression of norms, and is not racist.

The problem is created when globalisation (which in this case, as often happens, means Americanisation) imposes the first set of reference points onto the second. It is the worse in that Border Morris, the tradition which blacks up, was reborn in the 1970s as the most dynamic and popular current branch of the Morris Dance family, playing up wild and transgressive traditional symbolism: it is itself a radical and counter-cultural performance art form.

There is no easy answer to this problem. It would be nice if those who make the accusation of racism against Border Morris could learn the difference in the histories from which each derive.

It is more likely, however, that the path of least resistance will be taken, and the dancers wear black masks, or paint their faces white, green or red to achieve the distancing effect, instead of blacking up; which would certainly preserve the basic symbolism, while satisfying those who relate blacked-up faces to different associations.

With every good wish,

Ronald Hutton"

'could credibly be described as racist' Fuck's sake, man, that tradition couldn't credibly be described as not racist.

As for 'It would be nice if those who make the accusation of racism against Border Morris could learn the difference in the histories from which each derive.', it would also be nice if those involved in Border Morris could engage with the reasons people don't like it, which don't necessarily include thinking that the morris dancers are intentionally being racist. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that there is no racist intention. But they should still stop doing it.

At best, it is a tradition that equates being black with being 'other'. An outdated, anachronistic, excluding association.

ETA: and this author himself acknowledges that one of the things involved is 'transgression of norms'. About time such 'transgression' stopped including dressing up as a black person.

 

[killer b]

That's a different thing.

How? I know they aren't border morris, but we aren't just talking about border morris.

 

[Sirena]

How? I know they aren't border morris, but we aren't just talking about border morris.

Don't be a pain.

 

[Red Sky]

This from, possibly, the world expert on such things

"What we see here is a direct clash between two different national traditions, one American and one British. The American consists of blacking up white people to impersonate black people for entertainment, often with connotations of condescension or mockery. This is, then, a tradition which could credibly be described as racist. The British one consists of blacking up white people to erase their everyday identity and turn them into symbolic figures of seasonal festivity, justice or rebellion: the overriding connotation is one of transgression of norms, and is not racist.

The problem is created when globalisation (which in this case, as often happens, means Americanisation) imposes the first set of reference points onto the second. It is the worse in that Border Morris, the tradition which blacks up, was reborn in the 1970s as the most dynamic and popular current branch of the Morris Dance family, playing up wild and transgressive traditional symbolism: it is itself a radical and counter-cultural performance art form.

There is no easy answer to this problem. It would be nice if those who make the accusation of racism against Border Morris could learn the difference in the histories from which each derive.

It is more likely, however, that the path of least resistance will be taken, and the dancers wear black masks, or paint their faces white, green or red to achieve the distancing effect, instead of blacking up; which would certainly preserve the basic symbolism, while satisfying those who relate blacked-up faces to different associations.

With every good wish,

Ronald Hutton"

It's not just an American thing. There's also the Dutch tradition of Svarte Piet , which is a 'blackface' performance.

 

[killer b]

Don't be a pain.

incisive. You've certainly convinced me.

 

[Sirena]

incisive. You've certainly convinced me.

 

[purenarcotic]

Apparently it's border Morris and molly dancers who paint their faces- which are in very defined places. You're Birmingham ish aren't you?

I am in Brum, yup. They were dancing in the centre as far as I'm aware, we saw loads of them walking around and getting off trains at new street. The bells were really irritating.

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Is there not a difference between "blacking up" and painting your face black?

Probably. But it's controversial whatever.

 

[brogdale]

Naughty brats.

Eh?

 

[Sirena]

One NY i saw Dead Head Morris, whilst in Whitstable - they do a borders style dance and was pretty nuts to watch. They were black faced - there was also a guy with an upside colander on his head with brussel sprouts hanging off!

There also used to be a Fetish Morris side.

Morris (especially Border Morris) has gone through a crazy explosion over the last 10 years. There are now hundreds of regular Morris sides.

It's no longer just folk boffins but there's a huge influx of young, alternative lifestyle people.

It's a new dance genre and its drugs of choice are ale, cider and mead

 

[Gromit]

Fuck off, that's why.

Oscar Wilde is lucky to be dead.
Your challenge to his title of wittiest man ever would devastate his ego.
Rapier like wit I tells yah!

p.s. No you fuck off.

 

[bi0boy]

It's reverse cultural appropriation

 

[William of Walworth]

I don't know anything about morris dancing but does anyone actually think that morris dancers do this to be racially provocative or whatever?

My nephew is obsessed (don't ask) so I have actually spoken to a few and seen more this year than ever before in my life. I suspect very much not. I think many are just fervent defenders of ancient traditions (also, fairly heavy drinkers).

And it appears to be very few sides who actually paint their faces.

Some of our local side blagged the fuck out of our beer festival two years ago, after a blacked up very drunken dance, so yes that point by Manter , which I've redded, is empirically correct

 

[Pickman's model]

it would also be nice if those involved in Border Morris could engage with the reasons people don't like it, which don't necessarily include thinking that the morris dancers are intentionally being racist. I'm perfectly prepared to accept that there is no racist intention. But they should still stop doing it.

So on what level should they engage with your views, when your stated position is they should stop what they're doing?

 

[Gromit]

It's reverse cultural appropriation

So instead of profiting from another culture the reverse happens? They lose money?

 

[ferrelhadley]

Blackface is offensive because it was used in performances that belittled black people and culture or allowed white people to access lucrative audiences, performing black cultural music that were denied access to the actual black performers (or Afro American if it is more appropriate).
Though there is one exception and that is Al Jolson who has been strongly defended by many of his contemporary Afro American artists but that is a very specific case.
Putting black on your face is not offensive, no one demands Mary Poppins be banned because of the chimney sweeps.
People being offended is a bullshit reason to ban anything. When something is used to whip up hatred or belittle people with little power in society (Jim Davidsons Chalkey jokes for example) then banning, boycotting and making it socially unacceptable is fine, its defending people.
But simply because people are offended? People get offended by two men kissing, people get offended by wearing a hijab, people get offended by calling for greater wealth distribution. Anyone who wants any of that banned because it causes offence can go fuck yourself with a barb wire covered broom handle.

If something causes offence because it is misunderstood then that is not a reason to ban it. Tolerance is a two way street. If you can say that yes it is intended to belittle people or it is a recreation of something that was belittling then OK you have an argument.

Then there is the other side. The practicality of it. Its a fucking giant, open goal to the racists, chauvinists and nationalists. It hands them a great big late Christmas present. If there is a good solid moral reason to ban it, then we can swallow the damage that "but if it was a Muslamic tradition" will cause. But its petty shite like this that a large part of the population think of when they think "left".

I have seen no moral justification for banning\boycotting it and the practical side looks stupid.