"Blacked up" Morris dancers forced to flee during performance

[Bahnhof Strasse]

Why am I trying to find a compromise for them?
All Morris dancers should be chased off irrespective of whether they black up or not.

Phew. The balance of the universe is restored.

 

[J Ed]

I don't know anything about morris dancing but does anyone actually think that morris dancers do this to be racially provocative or whatever?

 

[Santino]

There's an argument the the name Washington redskins is racist and should be changed. I'd steer clear of red.

Green? Kids will think it's about the hulk.

Blue. They'd look like smurfs. You'd never catching a smurf dancing and prancing around like... oh wait you would... blue it is. Say it's woad blue if it makes it more historical for em.

Whatever you're arguing, just fuck off.

 

[Manter]

jack in the green's ace. drunken, lawless mayhem

We took a Syrian who hadn't been in the country long. At one point he said 'what have I done?'

(He loved it)

 

[purenarcotic]

Very few paint their faces black. We went to the jack in the green festival last year (bonkers, highly recommended) and if the 60- odd troops one was blacked (well, browned- it looked more like mud) up. Two troops were painted blue IIRC. Lots of characters in animal skins and heads and antlers and the like- including one who was the foreigner hunter.

Edit- sorry, sides. Always forget the right name

I was in the city centre yesterday and a large proportion were in black faces.

 

[Manter]

I don't know anything about morris dancing but does anyone actually think that morris dancers do this to be racially provocative or whatever?

My nephew is obsessed (don't ask) so I have actually spoken to a few and seen more this year than ever before in my life. I suspect very much not. I think many are just fervent defenders of ancient traditions (also, fairly heavy drinkers).

And it appears to be very few sides who actually paint their faces.

 

[Gromit]

Whatever you're arguing, just fuck off.

You fuck off.

 

[killer b]

I don't know anything about morris dancing but does anyone actually think that morris dancers do this to be racially provocative or whatever?

I don't think so, although many of them won't care that it is. Just muleish drunks on the whole.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

I don't know anything about morris dancing but does anyone actually think that morris dancers do this to be racially provocative or whatever?

They do a thing called 'Morris dancing', from Moor, which for some involves blacking up to look like, well, a Moor. Are they doing it to be racially provocative? No, probably not. But they're being massively disingenuous if they claim that blacking up has nothing to do with trying to make yourself look like a black person.

 

[Manter]

I was in the city centre yesterday and a large proportion were in black faces.

Apparently it's border Morris and molly dancers who paint their faces- which are in very defined places. You're Birmingham ish aren't you?

 

[weltweit]

Someone I know is in a troupe, I quizzed him about the blackface thing which he argued was a critical part of it and went on to say that they had never had any trouble because of it.

 

[J Ed]

I don't think so, although many of them won't care that it is. Just muleish drunks on the whole.

My nephew is obsessed (don't ask) so I have actually spoken to a few and seen more this year than ever before in my life. I suspect very much not. I think many are just fervent defenders of ancient traditions (also, fairly heavy drinkers).

And it appears to be very few sides who actually paint their faces.

I was wondering about this. I have never thought about it before but I had/have no idea where Morris dancers actually comes from, unlike a lot of similar traditions it doesn't seem to be linked to churches or anything like that

 

[J Ed]

They do a thing called 'Morris dancing', from Moor, which for some involves blacking up to look like, well, a Moor. Are they doing it to be racially provocative? No, probably not. But they're being massively disingenuous if they claim that blacking up has nothing to do with trying to make yourself look like a black person.

Do you think so? Do you think that many have thought it through? I have never really heard of it being a controversy before, I'm sure people have objected but afaik it hasn't ever really been a 'big thing' unlike for example the Black Pete thing in the Netherlands

 

[Manter]

I was wondering about this. I have never thought about it before but I had/have no idea where Morris dancers actually comes from, unlike a lot of similar traditions it doesn't seem to be linked to churches or anything like that

No one knows for sure and all seem to have a slightly different and complicated tradition. There are loads of different styles too. And modern sides inventing their own stuff. Mix of court display, Mumming plays (some of which were religious) maybe. Mixed with some paganism- the flowers and ribbons are celebrations of nature, bells and waving hankies and banging sticks to scare spirits away. It's pretty batshit.

 

[Gromit]

Someone I know is in a troupe, I quizzed him about the blackface thing which he argued was a critical part of it and went on to say that they had never had any trouble because of it.

Critical my arse.

 

[Ax^]

Someone I know is in a troupe, I quizzed him about the blackface thing which he argued was a critical part of it and went on to say that they had never had any trouble because of it.

i think i would of done the same thing.. wandering off wishing the man well ... whilst checking out local news reports weekly

 

[Magnus McGinty]

Is this 'Darkie Day' again that apparently has no racial connotations?

 

[kebabking]

My only issue would be 'how fucking stupid are the Morris dancers to go into Birmingham?'

I was in Birmingham yesterday on my bi-annual visit, and the same question could be asked of me - Birmingham is, was, and always will be an utter fucking shit hole of a place, it can never and will never change, apart from getting worse, so why do otherwise sane, sentient people decide every few years to 'give Birmingham a try' as it might have become somehow less shit.

It hasn't. It's as shit as ever. Fucking Allepo looks good compared to Birmingham. And Birmingham stinks of piss...

Anyway, the black face Morris dancing commemorates religious persecution on the Welsh border - it was used to create a mask to avoid the wearer being identified by the local busybody. A bit like modern anarchists wearing black balaclavas to avoid being identified by the police - and with the same relationship to racism....

 

[killer b]

there's some interesting discussion on the blackface on the border morris wiki page - there's even a suggestion that it's a 19th century innovation, influenced by american mintrel shows...

Border Morris - Wikipedia

 

[crossthebreeze]

Thing is, whatever the origins, contexts change. And even if the dancers think they aren't doing black face, chances are, there will always be some white people who assume it is black face and therefore hilarious, and some people who will see it as black face and be genuinely offended.

I've never seen blackface on morris or rapper sword dancers up here. But they do it at the Tar Barl (burning tar barrels) at Allendale at New Year - and while it makes sense in that context (black from the fire etc) there is always at least one racist wanker who adds something to their costume to suggest they are doing actuall blackface, and if it was in the centre of Newcastle rather than in a tiny village in a remote and very white valley then i suspect it would cause real offence.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Do you think so? Do you think that many have thought it through? I have never really heard of it being a controversy before, I'm sure people have objected but afaik it hasn't ever really been a 'big thing' unlike for example the Black Pete thing in the Netherlands

I would expect them to have thought it through sufficiently to connect blacking up with the name of what they do, yes.

I agree that it isn't as provocative as Black Pete. In Holland, they go in for a full-on racist caricature of a black person. Doesn't mean morris men blacking up is ok, though.

 

[weltweit]

In Catalonia one of the three kings is blacked up. I never understood why they don't just use a black man, but it seems they don't.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

Thing is, whatever the origins, contexts change.

This, basically.

 

[killer b]

Anyway, the black face Morris dancing commemorates religious persecution on the Welsh border - it was used to create a mask to avoid the wearer being identified by the local busybody. A bit like modern anarchists wearing black balaclavas to avoid being identified by the police - and with the same relationship to racism....

Academics who've spent years looking into this in detail have failed to prove this theory - it's a backformation. from that wiki page I posted:

"The 'disguise' function of the costume has most likely been influences by Cecil Sharp's [1911] interpretation of the black face [...] which has been repeated in various publications and ephemera of the English Folk Dance and Song Society ... The dancers have been exposed to information from these publications, whether first-hand or further removed."

 

[redsquirrel]

Nobody knows for sure the origin of the tradition, but, given the whole morris/moorish thing, it's hardly a great leap to think it is a reference to skin colour. So, whilst I doubt those who do it now are deliberately being racist, I can see why it upsets people. In which case, it's hardly worth doing. Yes, it's a tradition, but lots of traditions have fallen away, for the better. If they really want to wear makeup, why not choose a less contentious colour, like red, blue or green?

Exactly.

I don't know anything about morris dancing but does anyone actually think that morris dancers do this to be racially provocative or whatever?

No, but I think they should have enough awareness of other people to see that there are very valid reasons why this pisses people off and thus drop/modify this part of the act.

 

[JimW]

It's not like other parts of the costume haven't changed over the years, if it dates back to the 14th century the top hats and waistcoats will be later too, so just adapt again. Tradition doesn't have to be set in stone.

 

[kebabking]

Academics who've spent years looking into this in detail have failed to prove this theory - it's a backformation. from that wiki page I posted:

"The 'disguise' function of the costume has most likely been influences by Cecil Sharp's [1911] interpretation of the black face [...] which has been repeated in various publications and ephemera of the English Folk Dance and Song Society ... The dancers have been exposed to information from these publications, whether first-hand or further removed."

Wiki?

Phew....

I can you tell that I'm pretty sure that those who partake believe the tradition, and that those who do Morris dancing but not the blackface version believe the tradition - and yes, I did wince the first, second and third time I saw them...

And no, i'm not a Morris dancer nor in their circle.

 

[Sprocket.]

It's all good to say it's custom and traditional, but if it causes people doing it to be attacked I for one would be taking a serious look at modernising the performance. Hopefully to allow enjoyment by all.

 

[Sirena]

It is though.

No it isn't.

 

[killer b]

No it isn't.

thorough as ever Sirena.