"Blacked up" Morris dancers forced to flee during performance

[Treacle Toes]

But one of them is in foreign!

Use the translate page option like I did?

It's Dutch, not Martian.

 

[likesfish]

Twitter loses it over British Army ‘blackface’ tweet

This is somebody being an arse with cam paint and the fuckwit who thought it was clever to tweet it

The miners in the photo are more how cam paint is used to break up the shine and the id of your face at a distance.

 

[Cid]

Yes, the Moors also invaded Italy and Sicily but were expelled much earlier than in Spain.

Othello was based on this Othello Navigator: Cinthio's Tale

Um... ok. The point here is that 'moor' is a term used and understood in England in 1603. There are also proclamations issued by QE1 about 'blackmoores'/'blackamoors'.

To me (shamelessly nicking what I think some others have been pointing out) there are two points here:

1. The etymology of Morris and whether the origins are blackening or blackface. This is difficult to argue because we're talking about a folk tradition when folk traditions are rarely recorded. Unless they come up in court. The 1723 black act at least seems to be of limited help; it's an act drawn up in response to a specific economic situation and it targets poaching groups operating in known areas (and they don't seem to be border counties). Basically this is the kind of argument where each party is going to draw on a limited number of old sources that be interpreted in different ways and that will go on in the same way as long as there are interested parties.

2. The origins of the modern makeup tradition. Why thick black greasepaint? There do seem to be links to minstrelsy and there is evidence that in the early 20th century border Morris dances were sometimes referred to as 'going n----ing' or 'n---- dancing'.

The question of Morris dancing's origins need not be relevant. What is relevant is where the modern make-up style comes from... It has a very clear aesthetic link to blackface styles form the late 19th/early 20th century. I mean maybe you have a sort of convergent evolution of black-face styles, but it's not all that likely is it? Two make-up traditions arising at roughly the same time, in a musical tradition, with some attributed links.

 

[littlebabyjesus]

The question of Morris dancing's origins need not be relevant. What is relevant is where the modern make-up style comes from... It has a very clear aesthetic link to blackface styles form the late 19th/early 20th century. I mean maybe you have a sort of convergent evolution of black-face styles, but it's not all that likely is it? Two make-up traditions arising at roughly the same time, in a musical tradition, with some attributed links.

The things feed into one another, I would say. The idea that it's nothing to do with trying to look like a black person is barely tenable, imo, but yes, I'm sure you're right that it borrowed from later traditions as blackface developed. That's what traditions do, they borrow from one another. If it contains any element of 'othering' of black people, that's the dodgy bit for me, the bit it's high time people stopped doing.

 

[Orang Utan]

Your post is good but you have to justify this.

I think the moorish/morris connection is unsound and unproven.

The term 'moorish' for black is questionable. Moorish might have been a concept in Spain (to refer to muslims) but not in the rest of Europe, where 'saracen' was the norm. And Moors and Saracens are, and were, not usually black.

Have you ever read/seen Othello? What nonsense you spout.

 

[Dieselpunk2000]

I reluctantly took part in a wassail on Saturday night. One member of our band was overheard saying; 'Jesus, it's what passes for entertainment in the sticks in Little Brexit-land'.

Which of course got overheard by a few tweed and Barbour-wearing villagers(one being a prominent hunt master). We weren't the most popular characters of the evening. I had visions of being burned alive in a giant wicker AGA.

 

[Red Sky]

I reluctantly took part in a wassail on Saturday night. One member of our band was overheard saying; 'Jesus, it's what passes for entertainment in the sticks in Little Brexit-land'.

Which of course got overheard by a few tweed and Barbour-wearing villagers(one being a prominent hunt master). We weren't the most popular characters of the evening. I had visions of being burned alive in a giant wicker AGA.

I ended up at a dodgy wassail on Saturday.The words to Jerusalem had been butchered to include a couplet denouncing French apples and we were treated to sermon on how things grow stronger from their own rootstock.

 

[teqniq]

Blacked up Morris dancers flee after threats near Bullring

So, old English tradition that should be respected or dodgy racism with bells on?

No racism, can't be arsed to trawl through the thread to see if someone else has come up with an explanation but anyway was talking to a mate of mine who is a folk musician and was telling him about a traditional morris men thing and mummer's play that happens near where I originally come from. Showed him some pix and he immediately remarked on the blacked-up faces. He say is a tradition originally from the Welsh marches and is associated with poaching across the border when they used to get blacked up to avoid detection.

 

[butchersapron]

No racism, can't be arsed to trawl through the thread to see if someone else has come up with an explanation but anyway was talking to a mate of mine who is a folk musician and was telling him about a traditional morris men thing and mummer's play that happens near where I originally come from. Showed him some pix and he immediately remarked on the blacked-up faces. He say is a tradition originally from the Welsh marches and is associated with poaching across the border when they used to get blacked up to avoid detection.

Very disrespectful post mate.

 

[Teaboy]

No racism, can't be arsed to trawl through the thread to see if someone else has come up with an explanation but anyway was talking to a mate of mine who is a folk musician and was telling him about a traditional morris men thing and mummer's play that happens near where I originally come from. Showed him some pix and he immediately remarked on the blacked-up faces. He say is a tradition originally from the Welsh marches and is associated with poaching across the border when they used to get blacked up to avoid detection.

You should probably read the thread.

 

[teqniq]

If you don't like the explanation I can't help that, I thought it was interesting that is all.

 

[Teaboy]

If you don't like the explanation I can't help that, I thought it was interesting that is all.

It is interesting which is why it has been discussed at length. You'd probably find it interesting.

 

[teqniq]

It is interesting which is why it has been discussed at length. You'd probably find it interesting.

Ah someone else has already pointed this out? Fair enough, I might read it later got things to do now.

 

[killer b]

it's been discussed, as had the total lack of evidence that it's true, and the very likely possibility it was made up.

 

[Sirena]

And yet the word 'Moor' was simply a generic term for a black person. That's not speculation.

Where was it a generic term?

The Moors of Spain were light-skinned, sophisticated, invariably high-born people. They ruled Spain for close on 800 years and intermarriage was common.

They would have looked not unlike the Romans in Britain.

 

[Orang Utan]

Where was it a generic term?

The Moors of Spain were light-skinned, sophisticated, invariably high-born people. They ruled Spain for close on 800 years and intermarriage was common.

They would have looked not unlike the Romans in Britain.

so? they were ignorantly perceived to be black

 

[butchersapron]

Where was it a generic term?

The Moors of Spain were light-skinned, sophisticated, invariably high-born people. They ruled Spain for close on 800 years and intermarriage was common.

They would have looked not unlike the Romans in Britain.

Why the use of 'sophisticated' here?

 

[Sirena]

so? they were ignorantly perceived to be black

I am describing the Moors of Spain. You are adding the rest.

 

[BigTom]

Where was it a generic term?

The Moors of Spain were light-skinned, sophisticated, invariably high-born people. They ruled Spain for close on 800 years and intermarriage was common.

They would have looked not unlike the Romans in Britain.

http://www.taneter.org/moors.html
Read the link ButchersApron posted earlier, as it clearly shows moor as a generic term for black for hundreds of years, defined as such in all the early english dictionaries.

 

[Orang Utan]

I am describing the Moors of Spain. You are adding the rest.

Why are you describing the Moors Of Spain though? The term Moor was historically a catch all term used in England to describe darker skinned people than the English.
And the original Moors were from Saharan North Africa and had quite dark complexions.

 

[killer b]

I live near (but have thankfully avoided) the annual parading of the Bacup Coconutters, but I know they fiercely claim it's linked to a long history of quarrying and nothing to do with blacking up. There's virtually an annual row where someone from outside of the area accuses them of being racist, and all that does is make them cling to their 'tradition' more vehemently. The event's about the only thing that gets people visiting this cut-off and bleak area of East Lancs, so people from over there defend it quite passionately. As time goes by though it feels as though it's becoming increasingly a cause celebre for being anti-political correctness, and therefore taking on a more right-wing context.

fwiw, I think this is what we should be discussing rather than another tedious back-and-forth about the roots of the tradition - how is this circle to be squared? I can't work it out.

 

[brogdale]

fwiw, I think this is what we should be discussing rather than another tedious back-and-forth about the roots of the tradition - how is this circle to be squared? I can't work it out.

Perhaps the morris 'community' might have confronted this issue by now if it hadn't been so exclusively white?
Or is that impression inaccurate?

 

[ska invita]

I ended up at a dodgy wassail on Saturday.The words to Jerusalem had been butchered to include a couplet denouncing French apples and we were treated to sermon on how things grow stronger from their own rootstock.

what is a wassail exactly in your and dieselpunks context?

 

[kebabking]

fwiw, I think this is what we should be discussing rather than another tedious back-and-forth about the roots of the tradition - how is this circle to be squared? I can't work it out.

Why does it need to be squared?

Some people do something that some other people don't like. It's universally accepted that while some people don't like the thing that some people do, there is no intention to offend, denigrate or belittle, and there's no attempt or incitement to commit any crime.

End of story...

 

[mojo pixy]

Fucking ''patriots'' singing Jerusalem .. cultural elitists who don't even understand their own culture.
William Blake would hate to see what's become of that poem.

 

[killer b]

Perhaps the morris 'community' might have confronted this issue by now if it hadn't been so exclusively white?
Or is that impression inaccurate?

I don't think it's inaccurate, I've certainly never met any black morrismen. That said, I think it has been confronted by the morris community, numerous times - hence why such a carefully constructed defence has risen up around it, and why many sides have switched colour or dropped the blackface altogether.

 

[killer b]

Why does it need to be squared?

Some people do something that some other people don't like. It's universally accepted that while some people don't like the thing that some people do, there is no intention to offend, denigrate or belittle, and there's no attempt or incitement to commit any crime.

End of story...

It isn't universally accepted though. Hence this thread, the dancers run out of Birmingham at the weekend, etc.

So, not the end of the story.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Where was it a generic term?

The Moors of Spain were light-skinned.....

What all of them? I don't understand why you are clinging to this point.

Also, more in context to the thread, there are reinactment traditions, particularly around the South where some villagers will dress in the hooded gowns of the inquisition and parade and the village children will divide up... Some dressed as Spaniards, carrying nooses, the rest with blackened faces and ragged clothes. They are chased until captured and noosed... The kids take it as a game. What it represents is the rounding up/capture and murder/expulsion of the Moors.

 

[kebabking]

It isn't universally accepted though. Hence this thread, the dancers run out of Birmingham at the weekend, etc.

So, not the end of the story.

Having read the thread, I'm pretty sure that everyone who has said they don't like it accepts that there doesn't appear to be any malice involved.

I'm assuming that you don't think that people who get into a barny on a Saturday afternoon are the absolute moral arbetors of right and wrong?

 

[butchersapron]

Why does it need to be squared?

Some people do something that some other people don't like. It's universally accepted that while some people don't like the thing that some people do, there is no intention to offend, denigrate or belittle, and there's no attempt or incitement to commit any crime.

End of story...

How often have these people been doing this in the centre? I don't know. I reckon they are aware of the ongoing discussions around black face - of course they are - and decided to do this anyway.

It's not the doing things that other people don't like that's the problem - i think there's likely a very strong fuck you, i'll do what i like where i like attitude behind it. In which case, they have no reason to whine. If they are saying it's historical re-enactment, see above. And all of the above expectations - that it would be seen as intending to "offend, denigrate or belittle" are in play here surely. They know what would happen. I don't think any of these these things - intention to "offend, denigrate or belittle" are reasons for banning. But maybe reality will force another look at what their tradition is.