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private and corporate will still have plenty of legitimate reasons for keeping closed ledgers
But they will secured by the big public ones, especially Ethereum. That way, we don't know why it's all legite and above board, but we know that it is.

We don't know why a company's books balance, but we know that they absolutely do, without any chance of fraud.
 
The future with CBDCs is zero trust. You will be forced to use to prove you are doing no wrong.

If you walk into a bank and ask for a sizeable sum in cash, they will ask you what you are doing with it. If you tell them to mind their own business, you won't get the money.

Because they don't trust you.

Their attitude and the governments attitude, is that citizens are untrustworthy.

You will hear the term "Zero Trust" a lot for the likes of the WEF, BIS and FATF. They know what they are doing, it's not an accident, citizens are untrustworthy.

In the cryptoworld, there are trustless systems because you don't trust people when you don't even have to.

As for social interaction and governance, if you believe there is a lack of any of that in the cryptoverse then it's further proof you know nothing about any of it.

On your point re "systemic protection of the vulnerable", in a fair and transparent financial system, there won't be many people who'll fit that description, if any.

Thats not the future that the way it has been for quite some time
 
Yes indeed, CBDCs might not happen because no one who knows how blockchains work, wants to work to enslave themselves and everyone they love.

Central banks are having awful problems getting blockchain developers. Ah what a shame. :)

I don't think that will be the reason why it won't happen. The Bank of England clearly expect that it will be possible to find the required technical expertise to build such a system, and I don't think they would be wrong in that assessment.

More likely it will fail to get off the ground because businesses and the public fail to find a concrete use-case for such a thing. According to the consultation paper the digital pound is intended to function as a form of electronic cash, money which is held directly by the spender instead of being mediated through a bank or some other service like Apple Pay or what have you. If banks and payment services continue to be as reliable if not more so as they have been as the digitisation of the economy proceeds, then it seems obvious to me that there will be little reason to use digital pounds, and the seeds of the idea will fall on rocky ground.

However, if future circumstances are such that some form of electronic cash becomes a pressing need, then I can see the utility in having it directly issued by the Bank of England like coins and notes.

Digitsation doesn't stop discrimination. No one claimed that.

What does stop discrimination is descentralised, permissionless, immutable blockchains.

Does it really grind you down that minorities don't need to ask for old whitey's permission to participate in the economy?

Oh dear. Never mind. :)

You're still making grandiose claims without substance. Discrimination is something done by people and institutions, not all of which are going to be significantly altered by the introduction of blockchain into the picture. You seem to have an incredibly reductive view of society, not everything that happens within it can be described on a blockchain.

But they will secured by the big public ones, especially Ethereum. That way, we don't know why it's all legite and above board, but we know that it is.

We don't know why a company's books balance, but we know that they absolutely do, without any chance of fraud.

That's ridiculous, you can't reduce fraud down to balancing the books. Part of the whole point of fraud is that things are not as they seem. The very fact that fraudsters use crypto puts the lie to the idea that transparency alone is the answer. Then there are services like Tornado Cash which facilitate money laundering "financial privacy", even within supposedly transparent blockchains.
 
For me it's mostly the lack of regulation,
why do you want someone else to decide what you can and cant do?
poorly implemented solutions,
such as?
lack of testing of products
Bitcoin uptime since conception is currently 99.98%. It has not gone down in over a decade.
and no recourse when things on wrong.
insurance protocols are available for smart contracts, and guardrails such as social recovery etc are available for use to prevent user error.
Which I assume CBDC will fix this and have backing to compensate customers when it does.
Thats a hell of an assumption! And back by what exactly?
We'll lose privacy in what we buy, but we have much privacy now will anything not bought in cash.
You are really not getting the scale of the threat here. Thats actually quite terrifying, people are going to sleepwalk into this.
Oh and the massive environmental fuckery that Bitcoin especially produces.
The petro dollar has wrecked our entire planet to the point where human survival is hanging by a thread.

It’s an incredibly anti-society perspective, in which there is no attempt to build social trust, no creation of institutional governance, no systemic protection of the vulnerable, no societal interaction, frankly. It’s an anti-human vision of the future.
Have you heard of DAOs?
No doubt that various governments will want a piece of the action if blockchain goes anywhere worthwhile. I very much doubt it will become the norm, since various entities public, private and corporate will still have plenty of legitimate reasons for keeping closed ledgers. I also doubt that many people are going to be receptive to the idea that their personal finances should be scrutinised and controlled to the degree that you're concerned about.
Oh absolutely, but when they launch the CDBC, they arent going to do it with caveat and warnings, they are going to do a lovely airdrop where people get free money and are very happy about this lovely new CDBC that is going to pay their lekky bill. People like StakerOne and I are screeching from the rooftops about the dangers of this, but people seems to think that that this nice Tory government wouldnt do anything nasty without telling people exactly what the risks are
I took a look at the pages about CBDCs on the Bank of England's website. It seems that they are currently looking at the idea, but have no plans to implement it. Curiously I see no mention of blockchain technology, perhaps they didn't get the memo about that being the only secure way. They're taking consultations as of now so maybe you could drop them a line? I don't give a shit myself, I'll be among those who don't see the point.
They dont necessarily have to be based on blockchain, but blockchain has significant advantages in security scaling and the core skills involved in developing a CDBC are pretty much the same as blockchain developers.
However, further reading uncovered this February 2023 Consultation Paper (PDF link) concerning the digital pound. One detail that did catch my eye was that this idea is at least partly motivated by a desire to maintain confidence in sterling and thus ensure economic stability. This would necessarily have to include a widespread public belief that one's money in the form of digital pounds remains private and accessible. A belief which would be viciously murdered in full public view if the government started pulling the kind of Social Credit-style antics that have got you so wound up.
Only until the transition.
Its likely that cdbc rollouts will be coordinated, particularly given the turmoil in the banking system which isnt going away any time soon.
I don't think that will be the reason why it won't happen. The Bank of England clearly expect that it will be possible to find the required technical expertise to build such a system, and I don't think they would be wrong in that assessment.
Yeah? The thing is that in order to have the technical knowhow to work on a CDBC, you are sufficiently technical to understand bitcoin/web3.
I know load of people that have made the jump from tradfi and web2 to bitcoin and web3, I cant think of any that have gone in the other direction, and these are exactly the skills required.
More likely it will fail to get off the ground because businesses and the public fail to find a concrete use-case for such a thing. According to the consultation paper the digital pound is intended to function as a form of electronic cash, money which is held directly by the spender instead of being mediated through a bank or some other service like Apple Pay or what have you. If banks and payment services continue to be as reliable if not more so as they have been as the digitisation of the economy proceeds, then it seems obvious to me that there will be little reason to use digital pounds, and the seeds of the idea will fall on rocky ground.
Oh you sweet summer child.
You're still making grandiose claims without substance. Discrimination is something done by people and institutions, not all of which are going to be significantly altered by the introduction of blockchain into the picture. You seem to have an incredibly reductive view of society, not everything that happens within it can be described on a blockchain.
You cant discriminate against people unless you know the characteristics of the type of person you want to discriminate against.
 
You cant discriminate against people unless you know the characteristics of the type of person you want to discriminate against.
You can reinforce systems that discriminate against people, and hence perpetuate and deepen discrimination, in lots of different ways. In the case of crypto, the way this is happening is through the concentration of power (ownership, capital, mining or 'proof of stake') into the hands of a few, the vast majority of whom were already in some way privileged. It's turbocharged capitalism, and that's discriminatory by its very nature.

Forget the magical nonsense you seem to think is happening and look instead at what is actually happening. Who owns what? Who controls what? Who is getting burned? Who is taking advantage of loopholes? Who is dodging tax? Etc, etc, etc.
 
Oh absolutely, but when they launch the CDBC, they arent going to do it with caveat and warnings, they are going to do a lovely airdrop where people get free money and are very happy about this lovely new CDBC that is going to pay their lekky bill. People like @StakerOne and I are screeching from the rooftops about the dangers of this, but people seems to think that that this nice Tory government wouldnt do anything nasty without telling people exactly what the risks are

They are not going to give away free money. One of the stated motivations for the digital pound is to ensure confidence in sterling in an increasingly digitised economy. You don't do that by chucking out freebies, because that makes it obvious that you're trying to bribe people instead of letting it stand on its own merits. Especially since these digital pounds are going to be freely interchangeable with the physical versions, what's to stop people spending the free cash and thereafter never giving a solitary fuck about the digital version of it ever again?

Only until the transition.
Its likely that cdbc rollouts will be coordinated, particularly given the turmoil in the banking system which isnt going away any time soon.

This "transition", it wouldn't happen to have a snappy name, now would it? Something like maybe, I dunno, "The Great Reset"? Look, I don't subscribe to your particular variant of tinfoil eschatology. CBDC rollouts, if they happen at all, are not going to be coordinated on a global scale.

Yeah? The thing is that in order to have the technical knowhow to work on a CDBC, you are sufficiently technical to understand bitcoin/web3.
I know load of people that have made the jump from tradfi and web2 to bitcoin and web3, I cant think of any that have gone in the other direction, and these are exactly the skills required.

There are also plenty of people who think all that stuff is junk. I don't think it's too wild to assume that people with the relevant skills and talents will be found. The paper indicates to me that the Bank of England is taking a cautious approach to the whole thing. That doesn't convince me that they would proceed with a dearth of talent. The Tories seem more interested in demonising asylum seekers than in pushing CBDCs, so I don't think they would lean on the BoE to go ahead anyway.

Oh you sweet summer child.

Meaningless response.

You cant discriminate against people unless you know the characteristics of the type of person you want to discriminate against.

What littlebabyjesus said. Also, discrimination can be built into systems that aren't even conscious.
 
I don't think non-discrimination is that great anyway tbh. I'm not a freedom fetishist so I don't think you should be allowed to discriminate on the grounds of race etc but if I want to not do business with Israel or Russia, say, or StakerOne because he's a bellend, I should be free to do so.
 
I don't think non-discrimination is that great anyway tbh. I'm not a freedom fetishist so I don't think you should be allowed to discriminate on the grounds of race etc but if I want to not do business with Israel or Russia, say, or StakerOne because he's a bellend, I should be free to do so.
In the crypto world, there's always the possibility that someone you don't like is making money out of you.

However, if finance were to be fair, especially in Israel and Russia, then they wouldn't have dickheads in charge.

It's the same regarding terrorism. It's very difficult to indoctrinate people with a stable life and financial outlook to murder people in cold blood for a dwindling specutrum of causes.
 
I don't think non-discrimination is that great anyway tbh. I'm not a freedom fetishist so I don't think you should be allowed to discriminate on the grounds of race etc but if I want to not do business with Israel or Russia, say, or StakerOne because he's a bellend, I should be free to do so.
In fact, it’s a massive flaw in the crypto system that StakerOne doesn’t see because he thinks a society can exist without social rules, purely governed by algorithm.

The flaw comes from the fact that power is defined as the ability to act on other’s actions. Societies, to be societies, need to focus and direct that power, through governance, towards building and legitimating social systems. It’s not enough to conceive of a society as a bunch of isolated atomised individuals who individually decide things. It’s also necessary to build super-individual structures, which can institutionalise practices that embed cultures.

And those bodies, institutions, structures, cultures have rules, which include rules about trade. They are rules that prevent things that harm society, like money laundering and asymmetric trade that exploits the vulnerable. There are also rules that protect society’s interest, like international sanctions.

If a state, which is the accumulation of power, declares that these rules exist and must be followed, then individuals and bodies have to follow them. And demonstrate they have done so. You can’t just say, “ha ha I have found a way of hiding my sanctions-busting payments”. The body that has instituted power, ie the state, won’t let you get away with that — you will still be breaking the law. Theft isn’t legal just because you wore a mask — the agents of law will be after you regardless.

So it is not in my interests to use a payment system that hides the counterparty, which potentially creates the space for making a payment to a sanctioned party. I don’t want to secretly undertake illegal payments. I want to follow the law and not make illegal payments. That is the basis of a society. Consequently, the hidden nature of the transaction is counterproductive to me, not beneficial.
 
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In fact, it’s a massive flaw in the crypto system that StakerOne doesn’t see because he thinks a society can exist without social rules, purely governed by algorithm.
Don't start telling me what I think sweetie. I can speak for myself, thanks. I've nevered said that society can exist without social rules.

What social rules we have as a society should be from the bottom up, not from the top down.

Therefore, there is nothing morally wrong in people voting for what those rules should be withing DAOs and/or various levels of traditional governance.
 
And those bodies, institutions, structures, cultures have rules, which include rules about trade. They are rules that prevent things that harm society, like money laundering and asymmetric trade that exploits the vulnerable. There are also rules that protect society’s interest, like international sanctions.
Money laundering rules are ineffective.

No one is arguing against a society having rules. What I am arguing is that DAOs will replace some of those institutions, improving the whole process, providing more transparancy and efficiently.

If the world went full on crypto, there would be no rogue twats running rogue stats to sanction! There's no need to sanction anyone in our world of unicorns and rainbows. :)
 
f a state, which is the accumulation of power, declares that these rules exist and must be followed, then individuals and bodies have to follow them. And demonstrate they have done so. You can’t just say, “ha ha I have found a way of hiding my sanctions-busting payments”. The body that has instituted power, ie the state, won’t let you get away with that — you will still be breaking the law. Theft isn’t legal just because you wore a mask — the agents of law will be after you regardless.
Erm blockchains and zero knowledge proofs are the best way to prove rules are being followed.

Individuals (especially pro crypto individuals) aren't interested in busting sanctions.

Do you think the rest of the world should ALWAYS take dictates from the United States? Do you think that democratic countries should be able to do business with each, if they choose to?

Also, what do you think of regulators who take action against those who aren't breaking any regulations?
 
Fucking hell, have a word with yourself.

As said elsewhere in this thread.

You can't discriminate against someone, if you don't know their characteristics.

In a permissionless blockchain, unless programmed otherwise, you don't know the chraracteristics of the other parties involved, ergo, it's impossible to discriminate.

I love it. People with talent can get on with it without the bullshit.
 
What @littlebabyjesus said. Also, discrimination can be built into systems that aren't even conscious.
That's AI. Nothing to do with blockchains.

1. Many new openings for blockchain programmers and other crypto roles are for decentralised projects where the workers need to be completely anonymous, therefore it's impossible to discriminate during and after recruitment.
2. Many people provide liquidity for various reasons. Since the only thing required is the liquidity, no one can be disriminated against there.
3. In all the ways that I have found to make money in crypto, all the native on chain projects, have no entry barriers. So I can't see how they can discriminate either.
4. There's loads of projects out there run by people who are in my view, hopelessly woke to the point that they are always looking for racism. No one to my knowledge has ever found a protocol or algo in crypto that is "racist". An awful lot of governance money goes to such causes, inlcuding getting more women and ethnic minorities into crypto.
 
That's ridiculous, you can't reduce fraud down to balancing the books. Part of the whole point of fraud is that things are not as they seem. The very fact that fraudsters use crypto puts the lie to the idea that transparency alone is the answer. Then there are services like Tornado Cash which facilitate money laundering "financial privacy", even within supposedly transparent blockchains.
Tornado cash is just a tool with plenty of legit use cases.

Many anonymous team members of legit decentralised projects, receive payment from those projects. To protect those team members and the projects, the payments should not be linked.

It is possible to have privacy and transparency.

For example, I would not need to know your transactions and what they are all about and that you are doing the right thing, unless we have a relationship where you want or need to prove to me that you are doing everything above board.

That's the correct the balance.

Yes, of course a scammer or fraudster could use Tornado cash, but what's the difference if they did? The scammer already has the money and we know who they are.

If an individual has been receiving large amounts of money via Tornado Cash, then others can (and sometimes do) refuse to do business with them until they prove where the money came from.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Tornado Cash. One interesting note; I've seen a few anti-crypto loudmouths brag that Tornado Cash has "been shut down by the US govt"

Nope it hasn't. It's decentralised. It's still running and being used.
 
That's AI. Nothing to do with blockchains.

1. Many new openings for blockchain programmers and other crypto roles are for decentralised projects where the workers need to be completely anonymous, therefore it's impossible to discriminate during and after recruitment.
2. Many people provide liquidity for various reasons. Since the only thing required is the liquidity, no one can be disriminated against there.
3. In all the ways that I have found to make money in crypto, all the native on chain projects, have no entry barriers. So I can't see how they can discriminate either.
4. There's loads of projects out there run by people who are in my view, hopelessly woke to the point that they are always looking for racism. No one to my knowledge has ever found a protocol or algo in crypto that is "racist". An awful lot of governance money goes to such causes, inlcuding getting more women and ethnic minorities into crypto.

That's all well and good assuming your anecdotes are representative, but I was attempting to illustrate the point that actually addressing discrimination is going to need more than a technological solution. Your idea that blockchain would somehow de-radicalise Nazis is just absolute nonsense, a digitally implemented open ledger is not going to shift anyone's politics, and if it does then I have to seriously wonder about their ability to form any strong political convictions in the first place.

Tornado cash is just a tool with plenty of legit use cases.

Many anonymous team members of legit decentralised projects, receive payment from those projects. To protect those team members and the projects, the payments should not be linked.

It is possible to have privacy and transparency.

For example, I would not need to know your transactions and what they are all about and that you are doing the right thing, unless we have a relationship where you want or need to prove to me that you are doing everything above board.

That's the correct the balance.

Yes, of course a scammer or fraudster could use Tornado cash, but what's the difference if they did? The scammer already has the money and we know who they are.

If an individual has been receiving large amounts of money via Tornado Cash, then others can (and sometimes do) refuse to do business with them until they prove where the money came from.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with Tornado Cash. One interesting note; I've seen a few anti-crypto loudmouths brag that Tornado Cash has "been shut down by the US govt"

Nope it hasn't. It's decentralised. It's still running and being used.

Tools like Tornado Cash have facilitated the laundering of billions of dollars, including nearly half a billion dollars stolen by those DPRK patriots in the Lazarus Group. I must say that the financial enrichment of rogue state actors is a very big downside compared to funding some crypto projects I've never heard of and that the world would never miss anyway. So overall an L for cryptocurrencies and their tumblers.

Tornado Cash has not been shut down, that's true. It has however been sanctioned by the US government, meaning that it would be illegal for any US citizen, organisation or company to do any business involving Tornado Cash. Which means if you're an enterprise that wants to continue operating legitimately in the US, one of the most important economies in the world, then it might as well have been shut down.
 
Good. Hopefully the whole experience will de-radicialise a whole shit-load of them.
I don't know about that but it has allowed them to fundraise and continue to operate and propagandise when pretty much all other ways of accepting funds were cut off.

I mean, you can say you hope the experience detadicalises them but that's just like me saying I hope Wednesday win the champions League in 2025. Both would be nice, neither is going to happen.

Now go outside, the sun is shining.
 
I bought around £72 of bitcoin last week and I had to hang onto it for a few days, after which it was worth £80. I'm available for the public speaking circuit.
 
I don't know about that but it has allowed them to fundraise and continue to operate and propagandise when pretty much all other ways of accepting funds were cut off.

I mean, you can say you hope the experience detadicalises them but that's just like me saying I hope Wednesday win the champions League in 2025. Both would be nice, neither is going to happen.

Now go outside, the sun is shining.

Why should he care about fascists being able to raise funds and spread their propaganda? He's got his freedumbz thanks to crypto and so the rest of society can go fuck themselves. He's alright, Jack.
 
Bought my first crypto this week. Avoiding BTC though. Is a bit like John Logie Baird's TV...he might have been first but Philo Farnsworth got it right
 
Temporarily unignored Staker to see what the latest kerfuffle is about, wasn't worth it. People need to stop feeding him negative attention - yes he's a deluded narcissist touting conspiracy theories and hilariously bad political takes, but continually telling him so is like emptying a glass of water into a sea of piss.
 
why do you want someone else to decide what you can and cant do?
Yes. I want people to not being able to steal from me. Therefore the law will also prevent me stealing from them. I'm prepared to accept that infringement on my freedom
See web3isgoinggreat for the millions lost through poorly coded smart contracts

Thats a hell of an assumption! And back by what exactly?
Not really the are going to regulated by the government so people will know the rules and if there is not a Central Bank to underright it will fail.
But it better than the unregulated free for all there is now.

You are really not getting the scale of the threat here. Thats actually quite terrifying, people are going to sleepwalk into this.
I don't know, but if the original protocols had been better written to prevent theft and dishonesty there wouldn't be the space for CBDCs to move into that area.
The petro dollar has wrecked our entire planet to the point where human survival is hanging by a thread.
Whataboutary: so you admit bitcoin is dreadful for the environment, as can't defend it.
 
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Bought my first crypto this week. Avoiding BTC though. Is a bit like John Logie Baird's TV...he might have been first but Philo Farnsworth got it right
I'd strongly recommend that you start with BTC.
BTC is the OG of crypto, there is lots of materials to support it, and its one of the easiest to use.
Start with a small amount (£5-10 is loads), and consider that money as training costs.

1. If you are buying from an exchange (which I assume you are, given that you are being KYCed), remember that you do not actually own the crypto until it you own the private keys. So that means transferring it to a wallet that you have the seed phrase to. If you do not own the private key, you do not own the crypto.
2. If you have serious money (>3 figures in fiat) in it, use a hardware wallet - Trezor and Ledger are good options
3. Practice sending, receiving and restoring your wallet from a seed phrase using the test amount before you get significant amounts.
4. (Optional) Move some to the Lightning Network and go spend some sats.

If you are looking to use smart contracts, the most popular platform is Ethereum, remember you will need some eth for gas fees to use ERC20 tokens. Metamask is the most popular and best supported wallet for ethereum, and also does a number of other chains.

PS. Drop me a PM with your lightning wallet and I'll send you some sats.
 
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