Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

[Saul Goodman]

This whole finger pointing at the consumer thing stinks. The system is set up to make maximum profits for those at the top, while keeping those at the bottom on a wage that again maximises profits for those at the top, so those at the bottom can only afford the cheapest of goods, and the only way the consumer can make a change is by refusing to consume, (which is what's being suggested here). How far do we take this ethos? I regard human suffering to be more important than chicken suffering. Do we refuse to consume all goods that have resulted in human suffering in their manufacture and supply? That would put us back in caves, but refusing to do so would show those pointing the finger to be massive hypocrites.
Glass houses and stones immediately spring to mind.

 

[Funky_monks]

So when asked, you have failed to provide any evidence that the photo was faked, but instead started going on about Victorian fairies.

Do you deny that there is ample photographic and video evidence of animal maltreatment on UK farms? Or that is exists at all?

It doesn't have to be faked, as I've explained.

 

[WouldBe]

So when asked, you have failed to provide any evidence that the photo was faked, but instead started going on about Victorian fairies.

Do you deny that there is ample photographic and video evidence of animal maltreatment on UK farms? Or that is exists at all?

Where did I claim the photo was faked? Provide actual quotes.

I've never denied there is animal maltreatment on UK farms. When you have provided foolproof photos of maltreatment I've even backed you up.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Where did I claim the photo was faked? Provide actual quotes.

I think we've firmly established at this stage that you don't have to have said something in order for it to be attributed to you. But don't forget to back up the thing you didn't say with actual evidence from three credible sources.

 

[editor]

Where did I claim the photo was faked? Provide actual quotes.

Then why are you constantly casting doubt about the credibility of the photo and throwing around wild and unsupported theories about the photographer 'throwing food down,' rattling on about 'Lens size, framing, filters' (filters?!), the picture being 'taken out of context' (huh?) and finally, a bizarre comparison with 'Victorian fairies'?

If a picture published in a national newspaper was blatantly misrepresenting UK factory farming, there must have been a considerable outcry from the industry. So what have you got? Anything?

 

[editor]

It doesn't have to be faked, as I've explained.

Great. So we can agree that it's almost certainly real. And if that's the case, how do you feel about animals being crammed in together like that? It's thoroughly unnatural behaviour in a thoroughly unnatural environment, so will you unequivocally condemn it, without adding your usual yes, but whataboutery?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Humans in their natural environment.

 

[Funky_monks]

Great. So we can agree that it's almost certainly real. And if that's the case, how do you feel about animals being crammed in together like that? It's thoroughly unnatural behaviour in a thoroughly unnatural environment, so will you unequivocally condemn it, without adding your usual yes, but whataboutery?

A) I explained why it might look like that having been in broiler sheds, but once again, I assume youve chosen not to actually read my posts.

B) Why do you keep asking me to "condemn" things? This is a thread on a bulletin board, possibly of interest to literally tens of people, not me speaking in the houses of parliament, or at a press conference or something. It's weird. Whether I like, dislike or ambivolent to these things is of little importance.

I have, however stated that the poultry industry needs to change, and then repeated it just in case people were unsure. You can make of that what you will.

 

[WouldBe]

Great. So we can agree that it's almost certainly real. And if that's the case, how do you feel about animals being crammed in together like that? It's thoroughly unnatural behaviour in a thoroughly unnatural environment, so will you unequivocally condemn it, without adding your usual yes, but whataboutery?

Jesus. If I go down to my local pond and photograph a solitary duck on the bank by my feet does that mean there is only one duck on the entire pond?

If I chuck some bread down and take a photo of 30 ducks at my feet does that mean there is the same density across the whole pond meaning there are thousands of ducks there?

If I post the photo of 30 ducks at my feet does that mean there are always 30 ducks at my feet?

That's what I mean by context and as a photographer you should know that or is it another subject where we have to spell everything out to you ?

 

[editor]

B) Why do you keep asking me to "condemn" things?

Because it would be good to actually get an actual, honest, direct opinion from you about factory farms. I'd like to know where you stand on the matter because every time you've been asked to condemn them outright, there's always a 'but,' a caveat or some tiresome vague politician term like 'needs to change.'

I think chicken factory farms are obscene and should be closed down as soon as practically possible. See? It's not hard to have a straightforward opinion on something as inherently cruel as these farms. What about you?

 

[Pickman's model]

A) I explained why it might look like that having been in broiler sheds, but once again, I assume youve chosen not to actually read my posts.

B) Why do you keep asking me to "condemn" things? This is a thread on a bulletin board, possibly of interest to literally tens of people, not me speaking in the houses of parliament, or at a press conference or something. It's weird. Whether I like, dislike or ambivolent to these things is of little importance.

I have, however stated that the poultry industry needs to change, and then repeated it just in case people were unsure. You can make of that what you will.

If it's not important to you then why are you bothering posting when you could be doing something vapid and ephemeral with your time?

 

[Funky_monks]

Because it would be good to actually get an actual, honest, direct opinion from you about factory farms. I'd like to know where you stand on the matter because every time you've been asked to condemn them outright, there's always a 'but,' a caveat or some tiresome vague politician term like 'needs to change.'

I think chicken factory farms are obscene and should be closed down as soon as practically possible. See? It's not hard to have a straightforward opinion on something as inherently cruel as these farms. What about you?

Because I'm trying to explain to people who haven't actually engaged with agriculture what its like - they can make up their own minds based on that.
I'm not here to tell people what to do.

 

[Funky_monks]

If it's not important to you then why are you bothering posting when you could be doing something vapid and ephemeral with your time?

Balance and/or to offer practical insight into agriculture from someone with over 20 years in the industry who now lectures in it at degree level.

 

[Pickman's model]

Balance and/or to offer practical insight into agriculture from someone with over 20 years in the industry who now lectures in it at degree level.

Glad to hear you don't lecture in logic

 

[Saul Goodman]

I think chicken factory farms are obscene and should be closed down as soon as practically possible. See? It's not hard to have a straightforward opinion on something as inherently cruel as these farms. What about you?

So you'd be OK with free range chickens, and pasture reared beef? Or would you simply move the goalposts, again?

 

[Aladdin]

This whole finger pointing at the consumer thing stinks. The system is set up to make maximum profits for those at the top, while keeping those at the bottom on a wage that again maximises profits for those at the top, so those at the bottom can only afford the cheapest of goods, and the only way the consumer can make a change is by refusing to consume, (which is what's being suggested here). How far do we take this ethos? I regard human suffering to be more important than chicken suffering. Do we refuse to consume all goods that have resulted in human suffering in their manufacture and supply? That would put us back in caves, but refusing to do so would show those pointing the finger to be massive hypocrites.
Glass houses and stones immediately spring to mind.

That is a very fair point.

 

[ddraig]

So you'd be OK with free range chickens, and pasture reared beef? Or would you simply move the goalposts, again?

Why are you quoting someone who has you on ignore? Snide, sly and sad Saul

 

[ddraig]

That is a very fair point.

It's classic whattaboutery and attempted hypocrisy hunting, been done over and over and over and over on this very thread

 

[Aladdin]

It's classic whattaboutery and attempted hypocrisy hunting, been done over and over and over and over on this very thread

I don't think so...but you're entitled to your opinion.
I think food costs are a factor for people who live on lower incomes. Especially families.
I also think that there were massive incentives given by governments to farmers that rewarded expansion as opposed to conservation in tbe 1980s.
There has been a change here for sure and much of the change has been driven by farmers who want to do a better job of ensuring that animals and tbe environment are cared for and about.

Change that will effect a change in climate issues will HAVE to be driven from top down. Regulations and incentives will be needed.
It's not going to work just asking/ telling families to stop buying meat when alternatives are more expensive?

You must see that surely?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Why are you quoting someone who has you on ignore? Snide, sly and sad Saul

Oh look, it's tag team Timothy.
It's so he can read it if and when he wants to, you arse licking fool.

 

[ddraig]

I don't think so...but you're entitled to your opinion.
I think food costs are a factor for people who live on lower incomes. Especially families.
I also think that there were massive incentives given by governments to farmers that rewarded expansion as opposed to conservation in tbe 1980s.
There has been a change here for sure and much of the change has been driven by farmers who want to do a better job of ensuring that animals and tbe environment are cared for and about.

Change that will effect a change in climate issues will HAVE to be driven from top down. Regulations and incentives will be needed.
It's not going to work just asking/ telling families to stop buying meat when alternatives are more expensive?

You must see that surely?

Of course food costs are a factor

What alternatives are more expensive? Are poor people in countries where they eat a lot less meat buying expensive alternatives?

 

[Saul Goodman]

It's classic whattaboutery and attempted hypocrisy hunting, been done over and over and over and over on this very thread

Nobody has to hunt for the hypocrisy when it jumps straight into the net.

 

[ddraig]

Oh look, it's tag team Timothy.
It's so he can read it if and when he wants to, you arse licking fool.

Why have you got that stupid right wing pepe thing as your name and tagline?
You and your mate both keep doing it, you'd have been fucked off most sites long ago for the shit you pull

 

[Saul Goodman]

Why have you got that stupid right wing pepe thing as your name and tagline?

Eh? Who the fuck is pepe?

 

[Saul Goodman]

Can anyone explain who pepe is? Or is this another veganist delusion?
I fear the latter, and ddraig has finally gone full batshit crazy.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Come on ddraig, explain yourself. Explain how a picture of Bob Odenkirk is right wing.
Taps watch...

 

[Funky_monks]

I thought pepe was some kind of frog thing?

 

[Saul Goodman]

I thought pepe was some kind of frog thing?

I just Googled it. Seems you're right. I'd love ddraig to explain the connection between Bob Odenkirk and a frog.

 

[ElizabethofYork]

Pepe le Pew?

 

[Aladdin]

..pepe...
Isn't that what little kids call having to go to the loo?

Are poor people in countries where they eat a lot less meat buying expensive alternatives?

Sorry...what?