Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

[Pickman's model]

Depends what you mean though, doesn't it?
According to some, applying a massive swathe of anthropomorphism to looking after animals is the only way not to be cruel.
It's certainly not the case that the majority of people I've met whilst farming were cruel to people, most were very nice.
I've seen plenty of things I would consider to be pretty cruel by people who claim to care deeply for their animals - putting dogs in stupid costumes, breeding and buying dogs that are so overbred and essentially crippled that they will have shitty, short lives full of medical problems (I'd much rather be a broiler than a pug), hairless cats (thats bizarre and cruel), breeding/keeping those ridiculous goldfish with several tails and bulgy eyes that always seem to get swimbladder problems, people who have "rescued" livestock and overfed them so they are barrels of lard who always then seem to get pneumonia (overfeeding is almost as bad as underfeeding) etc etc

Because we have this massive disconnect now (urban populations who haven't been rural in generations), people are very unfamiliar with livestock keeping, and therefore make suppositions that aren't necessarily true.

I think it's safe to say that factory farming would be taken by most people rural or urban to be cruel.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Depends what you mean though, doesn't it?
According to some, applying a massive swathe of anthropomorphism to looking after animals is the only way not to be cruel.
It's certainly not the case that the majority of people I've met whilst farming were cruel to people, most were very nice.
I've seen plenty of things I would consider to be pretty cruel by people who claim to care deeply for their animals - putting dogs in stupid costumes, breeding and buying dogs that are so overbred and essentially crippled that they will have shitty, short lives full of medical problems (I'd much rather be a broiler than a pug), hairless cats (thats bizarre and cruel), breeding/keeping those ridiculous goldfish with several tails and bulgy eyes that always seem to get swimbladder problems, people who have "rescued" livestock and overfed them so they are barrels of lard who always then seem to get pneumonia (overfeeding is almost as bad as underfeeding) etc etc

Because we have this massive disconnect now (urban populations who haven't been rural in generations), people are very unfamiliar with livestock keeping, and therefore make suppositions that aren't necessarily true.

I was thinking of Bulldogs a few pages back when somebody mentioned animal cruelty. It seems the definition does vary quide widely.

 

[Pickman's model]

I was thinking of Bulldogs a few pages back when somebody mentioned animal cruelty. It seems the definition does vary quide widely.

Yeh that's cruel too.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Yeh that's cruel too.

Yet people see them in the street and say 'awww, isn't he cute!' No, he's fucked and barely able to breathe. His hips are likely to pop out and he has eye, skin and teeth problems, because we made him this way'
I see that as far more cruel than breeding chickens for food.

 

[Johnny Vodka]

The sort of people who'd be cruel to animals will be cruel to humans. Human freedom, animal rights - one struggle, one fight

Yes, it's all a bit out of sight, out of mind, in the same way many of us (including myself tbf) conveniently ignore the exploitation of people in developing countries just so as we can have cheap goods.

"If we pay clothes manufacturers in the developing world a fair wage, how are the UK poor meant to afford a t-shirt?"

 

[Funky_monks]

I think it's safe to say that factory farming would be taken by most people rural or urban to be cruel.

You'd be surprised - I routinely show my students the entire broiler process (even most ag students haven't seen a broiler shed before - half of mine aren't from farming backgrounds anyway). We go on a tour: Hatchery, growing sheds, kill and processing plant for major supermarkets and most of them had expected it to be much worse than it was due to media etc. I cannot, however, comment on layers because I've never been on anything other than a free range layer unit (not seen hatcheries or intensive units).
As per one of my "obfuscating" posts - I think the industry needs to change, for environmental reasons (as that was what was being discussed at the time), and Id like to see more outdoor systems where chickens follow arable and are more integrated/directly manuring fields.

 

[Pickman's model]

Yet people see them in the street and say 'awww, isn't he cute!' No, he's fucked and barely able to breathe. His hips are likely to pop out and he has eye, skin and teeth problems, because we made him this way'
I see that as far more cruel than breeding chickens for food.

Oh. I see them as similarly cruel as neither chickens in the factory farm nor bulldogs would exist as they are effective human designs. They are both bred for human enjoyment not for any other purpose.

 

[Funky_monks]

Yeh that's cruel too.

But do you think all the people that own them are, by definition cruel?
I don't.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Yes, it's all a bit out of sight, out of mind, in the same way many of us (including myself tbf) conveniently ignore the exploitation of people in developing countries just so as we can have cheap goods.

"If we pay clothes manufacturers in the developing world a fair wage, how are the UK poor meant to afford a t-shirt?"

That's the thing I really have an issue with. The people pointing fingers here will be consuming things born of actual human suffering, yet that's OK, because the Guardian didn't do an article on it with pictures.

 

[Funky_monks]

Oh. I see them as similarly cruel as neither chickens in the factory farm nor bulldogs would exist as they are effective human designs. They are both bred for human enjoyment not for any other purpose.

Plenty of other dog breeds exist though - and the keeping of them is not cruel, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Saul Goodman]

But do you think all the people that own them are, by definition cruel?
I don't.

My niece has a French Bulldog. She's a lovely person. Wouldn't harm a fly.

 

[Pickman's model]

Plenty of other dog breeds exist though - and the keeping of them is not cruel, as far as I'm concerned.

Yes you already said that. I don't know why you need to repeat yourself so.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

As a kid I was very upset when I found out about the conditions battery hens live in etc.

Then I found out about the shit conditions for most humans as I got older. And the massively shitter ones that rapid climate change will cause... millions suffering and dying, mass population extinctions etc.

Quite right to keep the animal rights aspect seperate. Bearing the above ^ in mind I cant say I give a shit about some chickens in a barn...

I prefer the sound of kid you tbh.

 

[Funky_monks]

Yes you already said that. I don't know why you need to repeat yourself so.

The point is that your notion that people who are cruel to animals are also cruel to humans isn't true.
I don't think that a lot of people have any notion of what's cruel (apart from the obvious hurting animals for fun).

 

[Johnny Vodka]

because the Guardian didn't do an article on it with pictures.

I would be surprised if they hadn't.

 

[Jeff Robinson]

Pro-slaughterhouse Urbanites (in unison): “Of course, everyone on this thread agrees that factory farming is wrong, it is an appalling slander to suggest otherwise”

Pro-slaughterhouse Urbanites: defend factory farming, defend its practices, deny its abuses, claim all footage to the contrary is probably fabricated, ‘who gives a shit anyway’, defend consuming factory farmed meat because money etc.

 

[Saul Goodman]

Pro-slaughterhouse Urbanites (in unison): “Of course, everyone on this thread agrees that factory farming is wrong, it is an appalling slander to suggest otherwise”

Pro-slaughterhouse Urbanites: defend factory farming, defend its practices, deny its abuses, claim all footage to the contrary is probably fabricated, ‘who gives a shit anyway’, defend consuming factory farmed meat because money etc.

Can you point out where people have defended factory farming and its practices?

 

[Pickman's model]

The point is that your notion that people who are cruel to animals are also cruel to humans isn't true.
I don't think that a lot of people have any notion of what's cruel (apart from the obvious hurting animals for fun).

The point is you haven't proved anything of the sort. The people who breed dogs whose whole existence is one long gasp for breath are, I submit, cruel. They are directly involved in breeding animals who will never know comfort in themselves. And while people who own the dogs might love them like children they are at least unwittingly cruel as without their participation people would stop breeding such animals.

 

[Spymaster]

Pro-slaughterhouse Urbanites (in unison): “Of course, everyone on this thread agrees that factory farming is wrong, it is an appalling slander to suggest otherwise”

Pro-slaughterhouse Urbanites: defend factory farming, defend its practices, deny its abuses, claim all footage to the contrary is probably fabricated, ‘who gives a shit anyway’, defend consuming factory farmed meat because money etc.

You're getting confused about who's saying what, Nutty.

 

[Funky_monks]

Can you point out where people have defended factory farming and its practices?

Nobody has, so it'll be a long wait.

 

[Funky_monks]

The point is you haven't proved anything of the sort. The people who breed dogs whose whole existence is one long gasp for breath are, I submit, cruel. They are directly involved in breeding animals who will never know comfort in themselves. And while people who own the dogs might love them like children they are at least unwittingly cruel as without their participation people would stop breeding such animals.

And do you think pug owners are more likely to be cruel to humans? Because that was your assertion.

 

[Pickman's model]

And do you think pug owners are more likely to be cruel to humans? Because that was your assertion.

No it isn't

I think it cruel to keep birds in cages. I think it cruel to keep pugs or bulldogs. But that's very much at the lower end of the spectrum and people like that will be crueller at the lower end of the spectrum too. "Forgetting" to say thank you. Not holding doors. Treading on people's feet occasionally on purpose. That sort of thing.

 

[Funky_monks]

No it isn't

You said "people who are cruel to animals are more likely to be cruel to humans". You then also stated that you thought pug ownership was cruel - therefore if you believe your first statement to be true, then logically pug owners would also be more likely to be cruel to humans.

 

[Pickman's model]

You said "people who are cruel to animals are more likely to be cruel to humans". You then also stated that you thought pug ownership was cruel - therefore if you believe your first statement to be true, then logically pug owners would also be more likely to be cruel to humans.

Jesus that's a fuck up of a post

 

[Pickman's model]

You said "people who are cruel to animals are more likely to be cruel to humans". You then also stated that you thought pug ownership was cruel - therefore if you believe your first statement to be true, then logically pug owners would also be more likely to be cruel to humans.

There's a massive logic fail here. I won't be cruel and point it out but I will say it's on the last three lines

 

[Funky_monks]

No it isn't

I think it cruel to keep birds in cages. I think it cruel to keep pugs or bulldogs. But that's very much at the lower end of the spectrum and people like that will be crueller at the lower end of the spectrum too. "Forgetting" to say thank you. Not holding doors. Treading on people's feet occasionally on purpose. That sort of thing.

Jesus that's a fuck up of a post.

 

[Pickman's model]

Jesus that's a fuck up of a post.

It's much better than anything you've contributed

 

[Pickman's model]

You said "people who are cruel to animals are more likely to be cruel to humans". You then also stated that you thought pug ownership was cruel - therefore if you believe your first statement to be true, then logically pug owners would also be more likely to be cruel to humans.

All right - despite your assertion to the contrary my beliefs don't lead to pug owners being more likely to be cruel to humans

 

[WouldBe]

I don't suppose you have the teensiest, tiniest scrap of evidence to support this wild assertion? Anything at all?

I take it you read the article you took the photo from?
Does it look like that photo covers the 100m+ length of a barn? If it did you wouldn't be able to make out individual chickens at the back would you?
So you have no clue as to how much empty space there is outside of the shot. You're just assuming that the rest of the barn is as densely packed which is highly unlikely.

Do you believe that Victorian photo of 'fairies at the bottom of the garden' is real?

 

[editor]

I take it you read the article you took the photo from?
Does it look like that photo covers the 100m+ length of a barn? If it did you wouldn't be able to make out individual chickens at the back would you?
So you have no clue as to how much empty space there is outside of the shot. You're just assuming that the rest of the barn is as densely packed which is highly unlikely.

Do you believe that Victorian photo of 'fairies at the bottom of the garden' is real?

So when asked, you have failed to provide any evidence that the photo was faked, but instead started going on about Victorian fairies.

Do you deny that there is ample photographic and video evidence of animal maltreatment on UK farms? Or that is exists at all?