Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support

[Celt]

After writing my post above last night I went to bed and panic set in, decided I couldn't do it, wouldn't do it, but today I know I must and I will,

 

[Awesome Wells]

i've searched the internet for what ever's available locally and it just isn't much at all. I've spoken to Mind and the, rather useless, CMHT. I'm trying to get a diagnosis for aspergers/possibly ADD and they are supposed to be setting up soemthing locally, but the waiting list is...long.

I'm not sure where the tribunal will be heard. The default place is Bristol but the CAB tell me that, due to being swamped, it might be somewhere else room permitting. I won't know until they contact me.

Of course if I get into the WRAG I can look forward to going through it all again after a few weeks anyway. They really need to listen to the Mental health (and indeed physical) charities regarding this monstrous mess.

 

[toggle]

Tribunals do tend to try to accommodate as much as possible, I would speak to them and see what they can do. Unlike Atos they aren't there to deliberately trip you up so if there is something they can do they will try.

Can't stress that enough. My experience of attending one with Bakunin was that they had fuck all time for the DWP and were looking for any good reason to find in favour of claimants.

They won't want to know much about the experiences you had with the dwp and atos. they know all that stuff that happens, ti's not a forum for you to prove you got shafted. What they want evidence of how you fit the criteria for the benefit you are claiming. where people gain from being represented, is they have had someone go through their medical evidence and spell out how that fits what part of the criteria. To present a case, an arguement, instead of a ream of evidence the tribunal need to wade through, and might miss because they didn't ask the right question.

Spell out. what condition/illness/impairment.(proove this) what symptoms you get. You're supposed to describe an average for variable conditions (i think), but also say how bad it can be at it's worst. State how the symptoms match with the benefit criteria. Do this for everything you have evidence of diagnosis for.

then spell out. you take medication (?) - provide proof you are prescribed it. what side effects does this cause you. State how the side effects match with the claiming criteria.

 

[toggle]

i've searched the internet for what ever's available locally and it just isn't much at all. I've spoken to Mind and the, rather useless, CMHT. I'm trying to get a diagnosis for aspergers/possibly ADD and they are supposed to be setting up soemthing locally, but the waiting list is...long.

as far as I'm aware, you can't use something as evidence unless it's diagnosed. if/when it is, the other half might be able to assist in helping you fit that to the criteria, he's aspie.

 

[Awesome Wells]

It doesn't matter if you do have it diagnosed, though of course I'm not saying that I DO have those conditions, that's the whole point of getting a diagnosis. Interestingly, a DWP Work Psychologist did a sort-of diagnosis that indiciated a high potential for something like that. Initially she said she could do an actual diagnosis, but that changed into something else. (No, it doesn't make much sense.)

What matters is how you score on the descriptors. Just saying 'i have xyz' means nothing to the DWP. What they want to know is how it affects you in order to score 15 points. For mental health this is uniquely problematic: you can see someone might have difficulty walking if they have no legs. You, obviously, can't see how somone feels or copes with a situation. At best you might see them lose their shit and start climbing the walls. Perhaps that's what they want.

 

[Greebo]

<snip>What matters is how you score on the descriptors. Just saying 'i have xyz' means nothing to the DWP. What they want to know is how it affects you in order to score 15 points. For mental health this is uniquely problematic: you can see someone might have difficulty walking if they have no legs. You, obviously, can't see how somone feels or copes with a situation. At best you might see them lose their shit and start climbing the walls. Perhaps that's what they want.

This is where it helps if there's somebody you trust, and who knows you (preferably a healthcare professional, their words tend to carry more weight with the DWP), to back up what you claim is your health problem.

 

[toggle]

yep, you need to match the effects to the criteria they work by.

but there needs to be underlying medical evidence of a condition that can cause those effects. Tribunal wouldn't take bakunin's seizures into account as evidence because there was no associated paperwork

 

[Awesome Wells]

This is where it helps if there's somebody you trust, and who knows you (preferably a healthcare professional, their words tend to carry more weight with the DWP), to back up what you claim is your health problem.

Of course.

But that's not going to be possible in all cases, including mine. That's just how it is.

 

[Celt]

Awesome Wells I was knocked back by the Benefits Advice Shop, CAB, they all said it was impossible to make a late appeal, people here gave me the confidence to try and they have allowed the appeal, whether I win the tribunal is another matter but one step at a time (for me) if you don't fit into the descriptors there is always the "exceptional circumstances", a friend of mine who has allergies went to tribunal and won on this rule.

I found the waiting the most difficult part, and I'm aware that win or loose, I may be called the next week to start the process again as my renewal form has been with ATOS since July.

 

[Awesome Wells]

yep, you need to match the effects to the criteria they work by.

but there needs to be underlying medical evidence of a condition that can cause those effects. Tribunal wouldn't take bakunin's seizures into account as evidence because there was no associated paperwork

How could there be nothing supporting something as serious as a seizure?

 

[Awesome Wells]

Awesome Wells I was knocked back by the Benefits Advice Shop, CAB, they all said it was impossible to make a late appeal, people here gave me the confidence to try and they have allowed the appeal, whether I win the tribunal is another matter but one step at a time (for me) if you don't fit into the descriptors there is always the "exceptional circumstances", a friend of mine who has allergies went to tribunal and won on this rule.

I found the waiting the most difficult part, and I'm aware that win or loose, I may be called the next week to start the process again as my renewal form has been with ATOS since July.

Indeed and i appreciate ll the advice.

That said, anxiety is a bitch!

 

[ViolentPanda]

It doesn't matter if you do have it diagnosed, though of course I'm not saying that I DO have those conditions, that's the whole point of getting a diagnosis. Interestingly, a DWP Work Psychologist did a sort-of diagnosis that indiciated a high potential for something like that. Initially she said she could do an actual diagnosis, but that changed into something else. (No, it doesn't make much sense.)

What matters is how you score on the descriptors. Just saying 'i have xyz' means nothing to the DWP. What they want to know is how it affects you in order to score 15 points. For mental health this is uniquely problematic: you can see someone might have difficulty walking if they have no legs. You, obviously, can't see how somone feels or copes with a situation. At best you might see them lose their shit and start climbing the walls. Perhaps that's what they want.

TBF, it's the same for any so-called "invisible illness/disability". One of my many health problems is that I have moderately-severe problems walking, and use sticks, but because I'm not in a wheelchair, my disability isn't taken seriously (because obviously if it was that severe, I wouldn't be able to walk at all, according to most bar-room pundits!). Because I have a neurologically-based memory problem, that's not taken seriously. because I have a not particularly well-understood illness syndrome, that isn't taken seriously.
Of course, when I say "not taken seriously", I actually mean (in terms of the DWP) "gets ignored until I provide evidence of diagnosis and of long-term treatment.
It's not only people with MH issues that are in the firing line, but it's fair to say that they're seen as easy cannon fodder by the DWP and ATOS.

 

[Awesome Wells]

TBF, it's the same for any so-called "invisible illness/disability". One of my many health problems is that I have moderately-severe problems walking, and use sticks, but because I'm not in a wheelchair, my disability isn't taken seriously (because obviously if it was that severe, I wouldn't be able to walk at all, according to most bar-room pundits!). Because I have a neurologically-based memory problem, that's not taken seriously. because I have a not particularly well-understood illness syndrome, that isn't taken seriously.
Of course, when I say "not taken seriously", I actually mean (in terms of the DWP) "gets ignored until I provide evidence of diagnosis and of long-term treatment.
It's not only people with MH issues that are in the firing line, but it's fair to say that they're seen as easy cannon fodder by the DWP and ATOS.

Of course.

There are many conditions that the WCA simply cannot deal with at all. When I sat down with the CAB to talk about appealing and tribunals the advisor brought out a list of descriptors and we worked through them. This was more of a medical, ironically, than the WCA. Even a GP won't operate like this and I'm sure many would argue that doing so is somehow 'playing the system'. But the WCA is a complete joke. To call it a medical test is to misrepresent it utterly. My assessor was a perfectly polite and pelasant woman and,because i knew what to expect and to expect to fail, I was reasonably comfortable during the appointment. The receptionist was entirely different and it was pure luck I didn't have to sit in that waiting room (and fortunately it was half empty otherwise I would have struggled) for as long as she threatened I'd have to! The waiting room that really wasn't equippped for people that might have problems sitting/standing (someone was nearly made to go back home because of it, having just struggled all the way in).

This whole area is a mess. They argue that everyone could do something and, obvious cases notwithstanding, in an ideal world, that might conceivably be true. But it doesn't begin to address how nor deal with the issues within a labour market geared towards the bosses and the fatcats in charge. For example I might say that I could work from home, but in doing so I completely invalidate my claim for ESA - even though it isn't even meant to be an out of work benefit!

 

[Greebo]

<snip>For example I might say that I could work from home, but in doing so I completely invalidate my claim for ESA - even though it isn't even meant to be an out of work benefit!

Are you sure? DLA and PIP can be paid regardless of whether you're in work or not, but IB and ESA are supposed to be payable mainly while you're completely unable to work (and therefore out of work) because of a longterm sickness or disability, or temporarily while you try work which might be suitable for you after being longterm sick.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Of course.

There are many conditions that the WCA simply cannot deal with at all. When I sat down with the CAB to talk about appealing and tribunals the advisor brought out a list of descriptors and we worked through them. This was more of a medical, ironically, than the WCA. Even a GP won't operate like this and I'm sure many would argue that doing so is somehow 'playing the system'.

Another issue of which no account is taken, is that you and I see our GPs, and indeed our consultants, only when we're actually fit to do so. My own GP said she had made a point of mentioning that she only ever saw me when I was well enough to attend the surgery on the electronic form the DWP sent her. As I said to her "you see me, but you don't know that it's taken me 40 minutes to walk 400 metres to the surgery, that it'll take me another 40 minutes to walk home, and that I'll be having painful muscle spasms and tissue damage/inflammation from the exertion. What you know is that you've had to treat me for those things".

But the WCA is a complete joke. To call it a medical test is to misrepresent it utterly. My assessor was a perfectly polite and pelasant woman and,because i knew what to expect and to expect to fail, I was reasonably comfortable during the appointment. The receptionist was entirely different and it was pure luck I didn't have to sit in that waiting room (and fortunately it was half empty otherwise I would have struggled) for as long as she threatened I'd have to! The waiting room that really wasn't equippped for people that might have problems sitting/standing (someone was nearly made to go back home because of it, having just struggled all the way in).

The old IB medicals were much the same, in terms of the staff and their attitude. I was fortunate enough that my last IB medical was with a doctor who was so disgusted that I'd been called in after a year (his words were "there's no easy way to say this, but your condition is never going to improve enough that you need yearly medicals") that he made a specific note on my records that I shouldn't be examined again "for an indefinite period".

This whole area is a mess. They argue that everyone could do something and, obvious cases notwithstanding, in an ideal world, that might conceivably be true. But it doesn't begin to address how nor deal with the issues within a labour market geared towards the bosses and the fatcats in charge. For example I might say that I could work from home, but in doing so I completely invalidate my claim for ESA - even though it isn't even meant to be an out of work benefit!

Well, I'm sure I could do something, in fact I know I can. Unfortunately, I've never been able to find an employer who'd be happy with an employee that can only work on their own terms - my hours when I can manage them, not what the employer deems necessary!

As for ESA's status, it is and isn't an "out of work benefit", in that you need to be long-term sick and to be on SSP when your claim started for contributory ESA, but it's a benefit claimed by quite a few unemployed people. it's a real cart and horse issue!

 

[Awesome Wells]

Are you sure? DLA and PIP can be paid regardless of whether you're in work or not, but IB and ESA are supposed to be payable mainly while you're completely unable to work (and therefore out of work) because of a longterm sickness or disability, or temporarily while you try work which might be suitable for you after being longterm sick.

From the link (the DWP website - bolding mine):

If you’re ill or disabled, Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) offers you:

• financial support if you’re unable to work
• personalised help so that you can work if you’re able to

You can apply for ESA if you’re employed, self-employed or unemployed.

 

[toggle]

How could there be nothing supporting something as serious as a seizure?

long story.

he's a dufus, his doctor at the time was a pratt, and he had other stuff to deal with as a priority. and as they were absence seizures, he wasn't aware of how frequent they were - he told the tribunal he had them about weekly, i corrected him to up to half a dozen a day. he's seen specialists and resolved the stress that was causing them since. but if we go through this again, the specialists letters can be part of the papertrail.

Well, I'm sure I could do something, in fact I know I can. Unfortunately, I've never been able to find an employer who'd be happy with an employee that can only work on their own terms - my hours when I can manage them, not what the employer deems necessary!

th\nkfully himself has something he can do as self employed, which earns him enough that we can cope.

 

[geminisnake]

I think I haven't understood the tribunal thing. They HAVE to have a report from your doctor?? My tribunal was supposed to be yesterday but it's been adjourned because my car window fecked up 5 minutes from home and I couldn't drive 17 miles with no window, or leave my car in a car park while I went to the tribunal. But they sent a form for me to fill in to get a GP report. I thought you only needed that for additional info?
Does my misunderstanding work in my favour?

 

[Celt]

I think I haven't understood the tribunal thing. They HAVE to have a report from your doctor?? My tribunal was supposed to be yesterday but it's been adjourned because my car window fecked up 5 minutes from home and I couldn't drive 17 miles with no window, or leave my car in a car park while I went to the tribunal. But they sent a form for me to fill in to get a GP report. I thought you only needed that for additional info?
Does my misunderstanding work in my favour?

From what I remember geminisnake your misunderstanding could be a symptom or as a result of the condition which you are going to tribunal about, and when you do get to tribunal you should try and tell the tribunal panel that, I understand the format of the tribunal you will be asked if there is anything you want to ask/say?

 

[Bakunin]

Intersting news courtesy of the Disability News Service:

http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/11/atos-move-leaves-dla-decision-makers-guessing/

 

[equationgirl]

Intersting news courtesy of the Disability News Service:

http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/11/atos-move-leaves-dla-decision-makers-guessing/

Most interesting, Bakunin most interesting indeed.

Ties in with the website guidance being rewritten too.

 

[Frances Lengel]

I think I haven't understood the tribunal thing. They HAVE to have a report from your doctor?? My tribunal was supposed to be yesterday but it's been adjourned because my car window fecked up 5 minutes from home and I couldn't drive 17 miles with no window, or leave my car in a car park while I went to the tribunal. But they sent a form for me to fill in to get a GP report. I thought you only needed that for additional info?
Does my misunderstanding work in my favour?

They don't. I don't know about how it'll go for you (in your favour/not in your favour), but the tribunal just goes off the evidence you've supplied them with & how it applies to social security law. Which is better than every preceding stage of the appeal gig.
FWIW, I won my tribunal just on evidence I'd provided - No backing up evidence from doctors or anything. And I didn't even attend my tribunal - Coz I thought there was no point, I thought it was a lost cause. And, TBF, choosing not to attend your appeal does statistically reduce your chances of winning but I still won mine - You can win yours.

Honest to god, do it, and I wish you all the support in the world.

 

[Celt]

anxiety is super high at the moment, I have nearly all the evidence, which I need to post thursday at the latest and then I'm not sure how I keep sane for the next 7 days. I am waiting for the unreliable guy to produce statement, its not been nice reading sstuff about myself, but trying to look to the future, wake up every morning with the inner voice telling me I'm a fraud and should just accept how it is.

It would be nice to breathe in and breathe out fully occasionaly, Pulled a muscle in my back which is making me walk really awkwardly, have several abscesses and rather high blood sugar, but I'm smiling, well kind of.

 

[Puddy_Tat]

The friend I think I mentioned about a year ago has had his papers for re-assessment.



Found this while doing a bit of research - Swansea Social Inclusion Unit's guide to completing the ESA 50. (here - opens as PDF) - looks like it might be useful.

 

[equationgirl]

anxiety is super high at the moment, I have nearly all the evidence, which I need to post thursday at the latest and then I'm not sure how I keep sane for the next 7 days. I am waiting for the unreliable guy to produce statement, its not been nice reading sstuff about myself, but trying to look to the future, wake up every morning with the inner voice telling me I'm a fraud and should just accept how it is.

It would be nice to breathe in and breathe out fully occasionaly, Pulled a muscle in my back which is making me walk really awkwardly, have several abscesses and rather high blood sugar, but I'm smiling, well kind of.

You are not a fraud at all, Celt x

 

[Frances Lengel]

You are not a fraud at all, Celt x

No, you're not darl. Really you're not.

 

[Bakunin]

More interesting news on DWP claims decision-making in the post-ATOS era:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/civil-servants-told-judge-whether-2810718#ixzz2l8rZkAOr

Yes, when assessing complicated, serious and often multiple health issues and disabilities now that ATOS have legged it, what are DWP decision-makers advised to do in a leaked DWP memo?

GOOGLE THEM.

 

[equationgirl]

More interesting news on DWP claims decision-making in the post-ATOS era:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/civil-servants-told-judge-whether-2810718#ixzz2l8rZkAOr

Yes, when assessing complicated, serious and often multiple health issues and disabilities now that ATOS have legged it, what are DWP decision-makers advised to do in a leaked DWP memo?

GOOGLE THEM.

Fucks sake, fucking cunting wankers at the DWP have no fucking idea about disability assessment.

I have two chronic conditions, both of which are currently stable. If they both start to become unstable, who the fuck is going to understand the combined effects of Stage 2/3 Chronic Kidney Disease and spinal arthritis in 4 vertebrae with attendent nerve damage?

 

[Bakunin]

Fucks sake, fucking cunting wankers at the DWP have no fucking idea about disability assessment.

I have two chronic conditions, both of which are currently stable. If they both start to become unstable, who the fuck is going to understand the combined effects of Stage 2/3 Chronic Kidney Disease and spinal arthritis in 4 vertebrae with attendent nerve damage?

Just a thought, but what are the statutory legal requirements for a proper medical assessment of benefit claims?

 

[equationgirl]