As if you've ever wanted to read it. I doubt you ever heard of before coz it's not some leninist text.
Are you a marxist but not a member of a marxist organisation?
- Thread starter hitmouse
- Start date
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Its really hard to follow your stream of gibberish and hackneyed phraseology and set text links.
Please, do put me back on ignore, cos I think you're a complete waste of space, which is why I just take the piss out of you.
(not all anarchists are such a waste, serge at least indicated the lesson learned that Algerian independence was central)
I've not copied anything from libcom. I posted some useful resources in response to someone's post.
Which, just like yesterday, is exactly how I feel about responding to the blinkered trot garbage you post on here. It's like you are incapable of properly reading the posts of those who disagree with you. You avoid properly discussing everything and are extremely disingenuous. But ofcourse you are - you're someone with shit authoritarian politics.
That's rich coming from you. And your user name is very apt, which is why it kinda sounds like bellend.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
Again, that's the thing, I agree that anarchist methods for stopping climate change don't look that promising, but I also don't see the chances of building up a socialist movement that's both popular and strong enough to capture the state (whether by electoral or revolutionary methods) and then also principled enough to, uh, do good climate stuff and not just USSR/China mark II, within the required time frame as being great either. So we're probably fucked lol?
In terms of realistic possibilities for the medium-term future, I am increasingly sympathetic to the idea that, just as Rojava didn't come from taking the state on head-on and winning but was more taking advantage of the state being temporarily distracted elsewhere, we could well see crumbling states deciding that withdrawing from certain disaster-hit zones would be better or more feasible than trying to maintain order there. Although obviously the material conditions for trying to establish the kingdom of heaven on earth in those areas or whatever would not be that promising.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Emphasis added
Your in such a manner bears no other construction that that I've put on it
So anarchists have learnt lessons after all- which backs up what I was saying and contradicts what you posted previously. Fucking hell you're a cockring.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Cockrings prolong pleasure. Belboid on the other hand...
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
What? If this is how you construct sentences no wonder you can't understand anyone else's words.
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
I think the thing is that we should concentrate on the history / highlights of the working class struggle rather than focus on the history of what the anarchists / or Bolsheviks did/ might have done. Yes theres a lot to learn from mistakes but it’s almost with Marxism versus anarchism that we get to the point of parallel histories with selective quotes from either tradition . No doubt if the syndicalists were still around we’d have yet another version .
It’s the working class that is the agency for change not Malatesta or Lenin.
It’s the working class that is the agency for change not Malatesta or Lenin.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Let me put this in simple terms for you
You've told us how you think anarchists are shit at campaigns which aim to influence the government and illustrated this claim with an anecdote about a meeting on climate change with no actual indication that they aimed to influence government policy - indeed you stressed that it only looked at local activities. You then went on to say that if we wait for everywhere to act as they did at your meeting everything's fucked (if we wait till we've built up strong enough local communities in such a manner). In other words you're extrapolating from one meeting to a global scale which as I say is the sign of a stupid wanker.
You have posted nothing to make me reconsider my interpretation of your post being as you've only come out with bluster
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
Totally agree that there is precious little chance of the necessary socialist revolution happening before a very large part of the world is completely fucked. That's why we will have to hold our noses and push for some reformist tosh that wont be anything like enough, but could stop 1 billion people having their lives completely destroyed.
Yeah, I think both Rojava and Greece around 2015 show how workers can take over and run things when the state has become incapable of doing so. But its a difficult thing to campaign for - 'We want the state and the services it provides to collapse so that we have a chance' is hardly a slogan that will inspire the masses.
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
yeah, that's a repeat of one of your earlier posts (which I responded to), but doesn't mention anything about 'asking if everywhere acted the same' which is the post I replied to on this occasion.
Now, if you want to point out examples where anarchist groups are doing something more to pressure the government, please go right ahead. I do reckon there probably is some direct action they've taken part in, but round here, there is precious little that I've seen.
Carl Steele
Well-Known Member
This is undoubtedly true. Reminds me of the very old joke I heard in the IS (before it became the SWP). A new member asks a CC member to explain democratic centralism. "Aah," says the CC member, "it means we have the democracy and you have the centralism."
Also does anyone remember John Sullivan's little pamphlet "Go Fourth and Multiply", later reissued as "As soon as this pub closes." It's a satirical take on the Trot sects. Funny and apt. Sullivan wrote it during some very boring trade union meetings as a way of staying awake.
Edit: added the link to Go Fourth and Multiply - it's the original version, I prefer it to the later version, but maybe that's nostalgia talking.
Last edited:
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Edited- cba
belboid
Exasperated, not angry.
No, because they were explicitly saying that they were not trying to influence the state directly, that they were just ignoring it and building up an alternative.
If you don't try to influence the state, you're not likely to do a very good job of influencing the state.
I will. Knobcheese.
hitmouse
so defeated, thinks it's funny
I mean, depends if you're talking about a) pressuring the government generally or specifically with regards to climate change, and b) specifically anarchist groups or groups that anarchists are involved in, cos the answers will be different for all of them. If we're talking in general, then I'm sure there's all kinds of examples - the poll tax, anti-war movements, the universal credit campaign are all examples of anarchists aiming to affect government policy. If it's climate change specific, then I guess climate camp in the 2000s, various XR-related activities more recently and stuff like the ZAD in France, various anti-pipeline and resource extraction struggles have all had an element of pressuring the government and also been things that anarchists have been involved in? Probably best off asking someone who's been more involved in XR stuff than me as to what that's looked like, though? I suppose you're unlikely to find anarchists drawing up detailed plans for a Green New Deal, but saying "don't give planning permission to build this oil pipeline" doesn't seem any more statist than "don't invade this country", iyswim?
Cheers for sharing. Have bookmarked those.
deeyo
hurled unheard to this world.
really enjoying this thread - & it's sibling.
had me speed-rereading soltjenitzyns 'the cancer ward' looking for a passage i thought was in the beginning, discovered that ol vlads april theses made other bolsheviks call him a lunatic & 'the heir of bakunin', rediscovered some disturbing stories bout stalin & lysenko & finally found this bertrand russell quote:
' It should not be forgotten that in Marx's prophetic vision the victory of the proletariat was to come after it had grown to be the vast majority of the population. The dictatorship of the proletariat therefore as conceived by Marx was not essentially anti-democratic. In the Russia of 1917, however, the proletariat was a small percentage of the population, the great majority being peasants. It was decreed that the Bolshevik party was the class-conscious part of the proletariat, and that a small committee of its leaders was the class-conscious part of the Bolshevik party. The dictatorship of the proletariat thus came to be the dictatorship of a small committee, and ultimately of one man - Stalin.'
had me speed-rereading soltjenitzyns 'the cancer ward' looking for a passage i thought was in the beginning, discovered that ol vlads april theses made other bolsheviks call him a lunatic & 'the heir of bakunin', rediscovered some disturbing stories bout stalin & lysenko & finally found this bertrand russell quote:
' It should not be forgotten that in Marx's prophetic vision the victory of the proletariat was to come after it had grown to be the vast majority of the population. The dictatorship of the proletariat therefore as conceived by Marx was not essentially anti-democratic. In the Russia of 1917, however, the proletariat was a small percentage of the population, the great majority being peasants. It was decreed that the Bolshevik party was the class-conscious part of the proletariat, and that a small committee of its leaders was the class-conscious part of the Bolshevik party. The dictatorship of the proletariat thus came to be the dictatorship of a small committee, and ultimately of one man - Stalin.'
The39thStep
Urban critical thinker
The demographic in Spain in the 1930s wasn't much better tbh .
Dom Traynor
Tino Pai
This.
Wow!
Thanks for the reference, Serge. An honour indeed.
It's been quite a few decades since I've indulged myself too deeply in these kind of intellectual nuances and, on Urban, I've generally made a point over the last two decades of rarely commenting before and unless I've read the entirety of any thread (in this instance, I've only read this and the previous page,) so apologies for barging in but I'm not sure I have the intestinal fortitude to stomach a read further backwards - or foward - in this case.
What does strike me, is how much I'm reminded of the 1970's ML's I used to hang out with back in my teens.
And the endless argument/discourse about which is the specifically appropriate interpretation of the historical narratives around socialism is still perpetuated by, generally, relatively privileged white westerners who, likely, are too young to have ever visited the Soviet Union and, almost certainly, have never experienced today's PRC other than a few weeks holiday.
Today, I'm more disturbed by the (similarly disposed, it seems,) "Tankies" that inhabit the social-media-sphere. Cheering on the fascist CCP and supporting the regimes in Burma (Myanmar), Thailand, Belarus and on and on. All in the name of anti-imperialism.
Irony is dead.
Anyway, if anyone's interested in what's happening on the ground in Hong Kong under fascism ...
This thread starts with treelover in July 2019 and has notable contributions from Yossarian and many, many others.
Hong Kong: what next?
[QUOTE] Hong Kong: riot police have fired teargas and pepper spray on hundreds of protesters after hours of standoffs at several locations across the town of Yuen Long, where suspected gang members attacked commuters with poles and rods last weekend. Thousands had marched in the area earlier on...
www.urban75.net
I crash in around June 2021 here (although I've been posting on Hong Kong since I joined Urban in 2002).
Hong Kong: what next?
There's an old Chinese saying I learned last week - "calling a deer a horse." Around 200BC, a powerful chancellor called Zhao Gao supposedly tested the loyalty of courtiers by presenting the young emperor with a deer and saying it was a swift horse. When the emperor said it was clearly a deer...
www.urban75.net
It's about at page 30 now.
Be careful who you're supporting - you people of the Liberation Front of Judea.
I have no time time for bullshit, student, ideological nonsense.
My friends are in jail. Many as political prisoners of the CCP.
Resist authoritarianism. Now!
Wake up peeps.
Be nice to each other.
Bed for Bella and me.
G'night.
Rest well.
Woof
Right.
I've read the rest of the thread (not the first part).
The Tankie-type was banned - no need for me to read the first few pages then.
That's good. I'm off to bed now. I have real shit going on in my neck of the world that's far from fucking good.
Enjoy your debate good peeps.
Come Bella. Bed!
Woof
I've read the rest of the thread (not the first part).
The Tankie-type was banned - no need for me to read the first few pages then.
That's good. I'm off to bed now. I have real shit going on in my neck of the world that's far from fucking good.
Enjoy your debate good peeps.
Come Bella. Bed!
Woof
deeyo
hurled unheard to this world.
i'm not much of a historian, i can't really tell to what extent 1910s russia and 1930s spain are comparable. (while millions of workers were organised in cnt & ugt, i dont think there were any big trade unions in russia, for instance?)
but i suppose both revolutions ended with societies led by pigs on two legs in uniforms, & millions executed, in prison or exiled.
one would've hoped we had been better prepared next time around, but so far it seems the ruling class does its homework better...
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
Bella ciao
Thanks Picky.
S'funny how you've taken to me a wee bit recently.
I remember the old days when you and ernesto, et al, used to kick my arse to Kingdom Come, on a daily basis, for being a "liberal".
Ahhh! Them war' the daze, eh?!
You've mellowed.
Truth is, I've always been on the front-lines; a Sau Juk born and bred. (I'm getting on a bit these days though - kudos to Grandma Wong an example to us all.)
It ought to be said though, that I've always held your integrity, politics, expertise and opinions in the highest regard.
I've learned much from you over the years and you've helped to shape my identity.
(I trust it's mutual.
)Be well.
Solidarity one and all.
Woof
Belladog says ciao.
Come Bells. Bed calls.
Meanwhile ...
Be nice to each other, peeps!
Rest well
Woof
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