Are you a marxist but not a member of a marxist organisation?

[redcogs]

think im marxist without being in a marxist organisation. unless the library is run by some sect or other.

 

[redcogs]

Which it may be , last time i went saw a copy of marx for beginners.

 

[glitch hiker]

Do you know any Marxist Leninists whose vanguard party has achieved political power? If not, then you're answer is no surprise. Ask a "Marxist" who has been in such a position and you'll be amazed what they'll justify.

By the way, your dismissal of Kronstadt tells me all I need to know.

Something you're too cowardly to come out and say it seems.

I don't believe Kronstadt was the result of evil old Trotsky smashing those Lenin once described as the 'pride of the revolution'. There was a civil war and counter revolutionary activity going on.

 

[glitch hiker]

Some movements fail because they get squashed. Marxist Leninists so often failed because they ended up becoming the exact opposite (more or less) of what they purported to believe in.

As for Lenin, he only ever became special in retrospect because when he died his followers, and Trotsky's as well, could blame it all on Stalin.

Seems like Stalin deserved the blame for fucking things up, to be blunt.

 

[glitch hiker]

I am aware that they lost, which is stating the obvious. I think some of them did effectively side with the bourgeoisie. I think the spanish anarchists were probably divided into factions of moderates (who merged with the state side and effectively abandoned the revolution) and militants (who were truly anti-state and wanted to take the revolution further). But that doesn't mean it was a total failure, that there was no achievements in anarchist liberated areas. And it doesn't mean that we can't learn from past mistakes.

But atleast we were not brutal, cynical totalitarians like the Leninists (wether trots or stalinists).

I guess I must be talking to the wrong Leninists....or maybe the right ones.

 

[hitmouse]

of course being in single issue campaigns can be useful, something doesn’t have to be Marxist to be useful. We should always be learning from the class, as a way to improve our praxis. Of course lots (most) of the Marxist groups have failed to do that, they’re stuck a perspective from years ago and don’t think they’ve anything left to learn. That’s hardly something unique to Marxist organisations tho.

I appreciate the thread has moved on a bit, but it seems to me like we've managed to reach agreement on
1) participation in single issue campaigns can be useful activity, whether from an anarchist or marxist perspective, without those campaigns needing to be anarchist or marxist in themselves
2a) it's not accurate to describe groups that are not marxist as being marxist
which would seem to leave the point of disagreement as being
2b) is it accurate to describe groups that are not anarchist as being anarchist?

Why were the anarchist methods insufficient to overcome the stalinists? Why will this be any different in the future? If you cant beat the stalinists, how are you gonna beat the bourgeoisie? Yes, the Stalinists were and are viciously oppressive, but so were the Tsarists.

Sorry, but 'the big boys didn't let us' isn't really much of an answer.

There's some merit to this line of questioning, but at the same time, I have some bad news for you about the historical successes of Trotskyism.

Coudln't you say that Lenin had some sucess as well? Before he died and Stalin took over.

If lenin's so smart how come he's dead?

 

[glitch hiker]

If lenin's so smart how come he's dead?

I am undone

I'm just someone who wants capitalism and patriarchy to fuck the fuck off. I find reading all these old books by Lenin and marx incredibly difficult. So unless you can send David Harvey round to tell me a bedtime story about commodities and alienation I think I'm done. My eyes are so shit I can barely read a book as it is, never mind three fucking volumes of capital.

 

[platinumsage]

I've never been a Marxist but once went to a handful of meetings of an SWP front organisation, although one of those meetings was only me and the local branch leader who I am 80% certain was an undercover cop.

 

[belboid]

I appreciate the thread has moved on a bit, but it seems to me like we've managed to reach agreement on
1) participation in single issue campaigns can be useful activity, whether from an anarchist or marxist perspective, without those campaigns needing to be anarchist or marxist in themselves
2a) it's not accurate to describe groups that are not marxist as being marxist
which would seem to leave the point of disagreement as being
2b) is it accurate to describe groups that are not anarchist as being anarchist?

There's some merit to this line of questioning, but at the same time, I have some bad news for you about the historical successes of Trotskyism.

If lenin's so smart how come he's dead?

1) Yes, 2a) yes and 2b) only on a very specific and narrow definition of 'anarchism

Absolutely, as I recognise in a later post.

For that one, I definitely blame Stalin.'

 

[Serge Forward]

Something you're too cowardly to come out and say it seems.

I don't believe Kronstadt was the result of evil old Trotsky smashing those Lenin once described as the 'pride of the revolution'. There was a civil war and counter revolutionary activity going on.

What? That you're a tankie-lite member of a trot group with a chip on your shoulder about the anti-authoritarian socialists or anyone who dares to question the gospel according to VI Ulyanov and his followers? Or is it just that you're a knob?

Incidentally, a knob on ignore now

 

[The39thStep]

I've never been a Marxist but once went to a handful of meetings of an SWP front organisation, although one of those meetings was only me and the local branch leader who I am 80% certain was an undercover cop.

Obviously not good at his job

 

[The39thStep]

Oooh... and there lies a grand idea for a Philip K Dick style alternative history

Spain probably wouldn’t have passed the test to join the EU

 

[glitch hiker]

What? That you're a tankie-lite member of a trot group with a chip on your shoulder about the anti-authoritarian socialists or anyone who dares to question the gospel according to VI Ulyanov and his followers? Or is it just that you're a knob?

Incidentally, a knob on ignore now

Nothing I've said is remotely tankie. You don't even know what the word means, coward.

 

[Kevbad the Bad]

Seems like Stalin deserved the blame for fucking things up, to be blunt.

Oh no he didn't.

 

[glitch hiker]

Oh no he didn't.

he's behind you!

 

[Serge Forward]

Spain probably wouldn’t have passed the test to join the EU

Good plotline. The Iberian and North African Libertarian Socialist Commonwealth is in deep turmoil between those who believe it's time to cooperate with the newly established United States of Europe and thus break out of the statist, capitalist encirclement, and those in the revolutionary old guard, still true to the founding principles... etc...

 

[glitch hiker]

Good plotline. The Iberian and North African Libertarian Socialist Commonwealth is in deep turmoil between those who believe it's time to cooperate with the newly established United States of Europe and thus break out of the statist, capitalist encirclement, and those in the revolutionary old guard, still true to the founding principles... etc...

What a fucking simpleton you are

 

[Serge Forward]

Nothing I've said is remotely tankie. You don't even know what the word means, coward.

Sorry had to take a last peek before I switch you off proper. Love the "I'm no tankie!!!!11!!" objection. At least you accept you're a knob though. But "coward"? What were thinking of challenging me to a duel?

Sayonara and tanks for the memories

 

[The39thStep]

Good plotline. The Iberian and North African Libertarian Socialist Commonwealth is in deep turmoil between those who believe it's time to cooperate with the newly established United States of Europe and thus break out of the statist, capitalist encirclement, and those in the revolutionary old guard, still true to the founding principles... etc...

Alan Partridge speaks in dictaphone

 

[belboid]

Sorry had to take a last peek before I switch you off proper. Love the "I'm no tankie!!!!11!!" objection. At least you accept you're a knob though. But "coward"? What were thinking of challenging me to a duel?

Sayonara and tanks for the memories

Kudos for being the first mentioning North Africa - definitely more important (and plausible) than Russian gold.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

I guess I must be talking to the wrong Leninists....or maybe the right ones.

You and belboid are just a waste of time. You are effectively just trolls really. Rancid cockring trolls with shite totalitarian politics. And you are both going on ignore.

 

[planetgeli]

Fucking hell.

Get shit done.

 

[The39thStep]

Fucking hell.

Get shit done.

Love it when events that happened before anyone was born leads to posters blocking each other

 

[AmateurAgitator]

It's very clear to me at the moment why people say that certain leninist parties are cults.

 

[The39thStep]

Often get the feeling that some posts on here epitomise exactly why the left and anarchists need each other more to engage with than they need to engage with the working class they are supposedly fighting for. Very, very few people I've worked with or who have lived in areas I have lived in give a toss about the Bolsheviks, the Spanish civil war etc and would be bored senseless by such discussions.

 

[Fozzie Bear]

I’m a massive nerd and I’m bored of them tbh.

 

[Carl Steele]

Very, very few people I've worked with or who have lived in areas I have lived in give a toss about the Bolsheviks, the Spanish civil war etc and would be bored senseless by such discussions.

To be fair, there could be an interesting exchange about the Bolsheviks and the Spanish civil war, whether or not your neighbours or workmates give a toss about it. And I get the impression some people on here know quite a lot. But it all gets lost in personal antagonism, which is a pity.

 

[The39thStep]

To be fair, there could be an interesting exchange about the Bolsheviks and the Spanish civil war, whether or not your neighbours or workmates give a toss about it. And I get the impression some people on here know quite a lot. But it all gets lost in personal antagonism, which is a pity.

Yes I’ve got an interest in both , like I’ve got an interest in growing vegetables or post punk music but I suppose my point is it’s , and they are , a niche interest.

 

[AmateurAgitator]

Btw, glitch hiker very much reminds me of a guy who once obsessively and unpleasantly trolled Libcom (until he was banned). Also used to obsessively troll and shitpost in the comments section of Red and Black TV's YouTube channel - with exactly the same criticisms of Martin as gitch hiker's in the anarchist and breadtube thread. Said he had good comrades in SPEW and always used to big up Labour and slag off anarchists. Called himself G. Whistler or Ghost Whistler. Very similar political dogmatism (and ideology) and behaviour - OTT reactions to disagreements, blind authoritarian apologetics while slagging off anti-authoritarians, and OTT and unnecessary personal attacks. Wouldn't surprise me if glitch hiker had been booted off here before either.

 

[Carl Steele]

Yes I’ve got an interest in both , like I’ve got an interest in growing vegetables or post punk music but I suppose my point is it’s , and they are , a niche interest.

Yes, and this is a niche interest sort of a place. Not sure how many of your neighbours are here. My point is, a lot of information goes missing because of pointless arguments.