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And next, Syria?

well, better than a 6 week bombing campaign would.

if Assad fell under a bus tomorrow the Syrian Army would still exist to the degree it does now, as would whatever remains of the state apparatus that provides power, healthcare, and food.

theres not much of it, but theres a damn sight more of it than there'd be after the USAF went to war with Sryia rather than just Assad.


I'm not so sure, reading up about the various groups that make up the 'opposition' the rising influence and organisational capability of al Nusrat. It's actually the opposite; what would be better would be Assad to utterly beat the insurgency and restore his rule. If he falls Syria will descend into a civil war so brutal and complex that it will make post war Iraq look like a street fight by teenagers in south London by comparison. And that's before we have all the various regional players and dynamics play out (Turkey's reaction due to the new Kurdish issue, Israel's freak out over Hezbollah getting any weapons, Iran's freak over Israel's freak).

Note: I'm not advocating for Assad or suggesting he should stay but him being bumped off or falling isn't going to create a nice peaceful Syria.
 
...isn't going to create a nice peaceful Syria.

i don't think anything is - its going to be worse than Iraq for longer than Iraq, and its going to spread to its neighbours in a way Iraq didn't. joy...

i'm not advocating topping Assad because i think its a good (or marginally less shit..) plan for Syria, but because of the CBRN issue. its a shit plan, but it might be less shit than the alternatives.
 
i don't think anything is - its going to be worse than Iraq for longer than Iraq, and its going to spread to its neighbours in a way Iraq didn't. joy...

i'm not advocating topping Assad because i think its a good (or marginally less shit..) plan for Syria, but because of the CBRN issue. its a shit plan, but it might be less shit than the alternatives.


I agree, I don't anything is, but I don't think it's going to be the case of the least worst choice either because they're all about as fucking ruinous as each other.
 
i don't think anything is - its going to be worse than Iraq for longer than Iraq, and its going to spread to its neighbours in a way Iraq didn't. joy...

i'm not advocating topping Assad because i think its a good (or marginally less shit..) plan for Syria, but because of the CBRN issue. its a shit plan, but it might be less shit than the alternatives.


Was it even Assad who ordered it? He doesn't strike me as a strong leader, more a front man for the hardened thugs his father nurtured.
 
Talking about the USAs waning influence in the area,and surgical strikes using cruise missiles on NN earlier, wont be long now.
 
Assad will eventually lose anyway, it's of no help to us to have his blood on our hands. He will live in exile in Iran and won't be able to travel much for fear of arrest/assassination. He'll be a pariah for life and we'll have to accept that as his punishment for using chemical weapons.
 
so whats the answer then? how is the next CW armed bastard detered from using them if they know that retaliation won't be forthcoming because no one has clean hands?

If the usage of chemical weapons is what's worrying you then you should consider that if the US starts invading Syria, then that only increases the risk of those weapons being used. Syria's chemical weapons is primarily a deterrant to US invasion. The other day we were scratching our heads wondering why the Syrian govt, presuming it's them, would use chemical weapons at this point against the rebels, and the only logical reason I can think of is that's it's an attempt to warn the Americans against intervening. The message is a pretty clear one - if you put even a small numer of US troops in the country expect us to use chemical weapons against them, even if it kills many of our own civilians. It's also deeply worrying for Israel because what if Syria decides to send another "message" by using chemical weapons in the Golan Heights or something?

And the idea that killing Assad would bring about a swift end to the war is dead wrong. Killing Assad now would quite possibly trigger a collapse of the Syrian state and army but it wouldn't mean the end of the fighting by any means. One of the things you're overlooking is that for the Alawites, Druze, Christians, Shi'ite, Kurd, atheist and so on is that they will have to carry on fighting even if the Syrian Army collapses and the government falls, they don't have a choice. They're faced with an enemy that by and large wants to exterminate them from the country. Even if some puppet US-backed govt is installed in Damascus in truth there will be a poweer vacuum, and a continued civil war between the various minority ethnic groups and the Al-Nusrah militias, which the Islamists are likely to win. What happens then? Genocide?

Another thing people need to remember about "intervention" (what a surgical and clean word to describe such a violent and messy activity...) is that ok let's assume the US goes in, in a supporting role, and with heavy airstrikes and some low-key special forces stuff like in Libya, how does Russia respond? Does Russia then step up it's support for Syria? Do they send in troops? Where does this end? Are we going to end up fighting a proxy war with Russia in Syria? This could get all get out of hand really badly and trigger a wider regional and international conflict. I don't want to hear anyone try selling western intervention in Syria until they can answer these questions.

I figure the best thing for now is that Assad manages to secure the major cities and population centres, the UN manage to broker some kind of cease-fire and no-fly zone and then some king of peacekeeping force enforce the partition of the country. That's the best possible scenario but I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

What I also don't get is why the US is still not giving up. Can't they settle for a crippled Syria, or is it a matter of national pride and prestige that they take down Assad and revel in his death like Saddam Hussein and Ghaddafi? It's like the fucking DUP holding the peace process in Northern Ireland to ransom just so they can get photograps of IRA weapons decommissioning to put on their christmas cards.
 
Anyway another thought i forgot to mention. if the US uses cruise missiles on Syrian army, is that just to save face for Obama or is it a meant as a serious response? I suspect that politically Obama needs to show some willingness to respond or else he risks looking weak in front of his own population and Russia, but at the same time I see no support whatsoever for the US to get involved in another long protracted bloody conflict in the middle-east, and I think he'd be wary of doing anything that would force him to committ to such an invasion.
 
Anyway another thought i forgot to mention. if the US uses cruise missiles on Syrian army, is that just to save face for Obama or is it a meant as a serious response? I suspect that politically Obama needs to show some willingness to respond or else he risks looking weak in front of his own population and Russia, but at the same time I see no support whatsoever for the US to get involved in another long protracted bloody conflict in the middle-east, and I think he'd be wary of doing anything that would force him to committ to such an invasion.

The reason will be to save face, which is why on a previous post I wrote the form of military intervention will be a limited air and sea strike. It's obvious the US doesn't seriously want to touch Syria with a barge pole - for all the reasons that you wrote above. They have now been forced into doing something.


I figure the best thing for now is that Assad manages to secure the major cities and population centres, the UN manage to broker some kind of cease-fire and no-fly zone and then some king of peacekeeping force enforce the partition of the country. That's the best possible scenario but I wouldn't hold my breath for it.

Agree 100%, but with Russia and China playing the contrarians I can't see this happening.

Killing Assad now would quite possibly trigger a collapse of the Syrian state and army but it wouldn't mean the end of the fighting by any means.

Again agree, but the Syrian state has already collapsed. Assad isn't a President, he's a warlord
 
I see the Russians and the Syrian government has been working on their version of events. Russia claimed that stories of the attacks started to be published before the attacks happened, and the Syrian government now has this to say:

But state TV accuses the rebels, saying barrels of chemical weapons were found as troops entered previously rebel-held districts.
Soldiers had "suffocated" as they tried to enter Jobar, one of the towns in the Ghouta district around Damascus.
(from http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-23827950 )

Keeping an open mind myself, hard to establish the truth with so many well-established bullshitters in the mix, let alone the obvious motivations of all sides.
 

The reply from Howie's corner is every bit as bad as the original John Wight piece, if not worse. Check out the way they respond to the fact they're picking the Al-Nusrah rebels side in the Syrian civil war

Of course that's true, but if we had acted at the beginning then perhaps the people of Syria who originally started the rebellion wouldn't have the growing problem of Islamists trying to hi-jack their demands for democracy.

"If only Team America had invaded the country the moment the first demonstrators took to the streets, then all this violence and sectarian war would never have happened, just like when we invaded Iraq and prevented a sectarian war from taking place there." I don't rememer the Syrian pro-democracy demonstrators calling for US intervention and bombing of their country either. I do remember the Islamists being largely paid and armed by the West and their stooges in the Gulf states.

It also doesn't solve the problem, no amount of handwringing can change the fact there isn't a nice secular pro-American Free Syrian Army, made of nice secular defected soldiers and english-speaking urban liberals, Howie's corner can support. The rebels are 90% violent islamists. The FSA and Syrian National Council barely even exists in a meaningful sense. Here and now when they say they back the rebels in Syria they are backing Al-Nusrah and the Islamists. There is not some imaginary secular army out there and no amount of wishful "if only" bullshit about Americans intervening to magically save the day changes that.

Take a moment to read some of the other articles on the website and I think you'll see a pattern emerge with Howie's corner. In and amongst the anti-socialist and anti-left rants they specialise in they're also not that bothered about supporting secular dictators just like Assad whenever it suits them. For instance they published this recent stomach-churning defense of the massacres in Egypt, all justified by the secularism of the Egyptian Army http://howiescorner.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/egyptians-are-in-urgent-need-of.html :

Spot the pattern? US-Israeli backed secular dictatorship in Egypt massacring Islamists = A Good Thing, we must support Al-Sisi and crush the Muslim Brotherhood. Russian-Iranian backed secular dictatorship in Syria massacring (even worse) Islamists = A Bad Thing, we must aid Al-Qeada and overthrow Assad.

So whatever the faults of John Wight's post (which are the sort of shite we've all come to expect on Socialist Unity now) I can't take Howie's corner seriously at all in it's reply.
 
Here's an interesting case study in how this war is being waged over Youtube. Can I get some opinions on whether people think this is fake or real? It claims to be footage of rebels putting down their guns to talk to Syrian regime soldiers. Is this some propaganda designed to encourage rebels to surrender, or real? What way of knowing is there? Events like these have been reported in some of the more reputable newspapers and websites but it's not hard to fake something like this either.

 
My first thought was that only the regime forces would have the wherewithal and materials to launch a chemical weapons attack but I suppose if military units have defected some of that capability might have transferred to the rebels. But is it realistic to assume the rebels would go so far as to carry out such an attack on their own people, it seems pretty doubtful to me.

The odds have to be that it was regime forces that did this.
 
Delboy's attack on the article written by the National Secular Society is a complete distortion. Nowhere does the author justify or promote any violence whatsoever.

The response to John Wight does not support the Islamists and there are numerous articles attacking Islamism on the site. Howie's Corner is actually centre-left, trade union orientated,secularist, supports Hope not hate and stands against political extremism.
 
My first thought was that only the regime forces would have the wherewithal and materials to launch a chemical weapons attack but I suppose if military units have defected some of that capability might have transferred to the rebels. But is it realistic to assume the rebels would go so far as to carry out such an attack on their own people, it seems pretty doubtful to me.


I don't know if there is any plausibility to additional possibilities, such as the rebels having some nasty chemicals stashed in a place that was then hit by conventional weapons fired by the Syrian government. I don't know enough about nerve agents and what happens if you hit their storage location with normal shells to judge.
 
US is moving its warships into missile striking distance, looks like they've opted for region wide escalation then...
 
US is moving its warships into missile striking distance, looks like they've opted for region wide escalation then...

tbf, Syria is within range of US warships as soon as they go past Malta. there are lots of US warship east of Malta and have been since this began, so the USN moving its ships about does not mean they've decided on a particular course of action...
 
Delboy's attack on the article written by the National Secular Society is a complete distortion. Nowhere does the author justify or promote any violence whatsoever.

That's because they don't even ackowledge that any violence took place. The only reference to the mass murder carried out by the defenders of secular Egypt in the military is this sentence

Today, security forces have cleared two camps in Cairo occupied by protestors demanding the reinstatement of deposed Islamist President Mohamed Mursi. There are conflicting reports about how many citizens have been killed in this latest violence.

That's it. Despite having nearly half the article dedicated to listing instances where Islamists have attacked churchs and murdered people, no reference at all the mass killings that have been going on recently at the hands of the Army ( or even that it happened at all) Now I'll be charitable and accept there were conflicting reports, but what went on is not in dispute, not even by the Egyptian military. The massacres that took place recently in Egypt were infinitely more clear-cut that the incredibly confused and incoherent picture we get out of Syria.

The rest of the article is saying that it's legitimate for the army of any country to overthrow a democratically elected government if they're not secular enough. That without a secular constitution, to be imposed by martial law in this case, any democratic mandate can be bypassed if the ruling govt is not secular enough.

But one thing is clear. Democratic elections alone will not restore stability for the people of Egypt.

Before any election takes place, the rules of engagement need to be established. For these rules to be fair for all, Egyptians must adopt a secular constitution. Without it, the corrosive 'winner takes all' approach attitude will prevail, leaving minorities oppressed by the religious will of those in political power.

It seems like a pretty unequivocal justification of the Egyptian military coup to me, you might see otherwise.

The response to John Wight does not support the Islamists and there are numerous articles attacking Islamism on the site.

They support the Syrian rebels and wish the US to intervene on their behalf in Syria do they not? That bit I quoted in the previous posts sure looks like them pining for the US to have enforced regime change in Damascus, the same argument that TomUS makes on here and gets dismissed for it.

Howie's Corner is actually centre-left, trade union orientated,secularist, supports Hope not hate and stands against political extremism.

Centre-left? like Hitchens and Aaronovitch and the rest of the Euston Manifesto lot? What's their position on the Egyptian trade unions that their secular friends in the Egyptian government are currently squaring up for a confrontation with? And I love the idea that because they nominally support Hope Not Hate that somehow makes them beyond reproach.

No I think they're utter hypocrites, and a lot of their other articles on that blog aren't much better.
 
tbf, Syria is within range of US warships as soon as they go past Malta. there are lots of US warship east of Malta and have been since this began, so the USN moving its ships about does not mean they've decided on a particular course of action...

It does when they're leaking it to the press to prepare the ground.
 
...I don't know enough about nerve agents and what happens if you hit their storage location with normal shells to judge.

usually, if a chemical arsenal is hit with a conventional explosive munition it will just burn. there'll be some nasty stuff in the air, but the chemical agent won't disperse in the way that it would if it were delivered properly.

MSF are talking about 3500 casualties of various degrees of seriousness, with 350 fatalities. personally i think its improbable that you could get that kind of dispersal from a lucky strike with the Chem munitions cooking off. certainly anyone in the immediate vicinity of the blast/fire would be at very serious risk, but outside of that theres just no method of getting it into peoples lungs over a widespread area.

there are actually people on the 'net talking about this being a gigantic case of carbon monoxide poisoning. fuck me...
 
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