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And next, Syria?

Fuchs66

is delivery capability a possible method of working out what happened?

i've not done any Chemical work since the YO course at Larkhill donkies years ago - but the main thing i remember was that getting enough Chemical agent onto a reasonably large, widespread target to have a significant effect was hard work even with the capabilities of a modern, cold war scale artillery componant.

my initial, ignorant, suspicion was that even if a Chem attack by the Syrian government was, as others have said, utterly illogical, only they have the heavy weapons capability to put enough agent into these towns/suburbs to actually produce these effects - is that reasonable, or have Chem agents/delivery moved on significantly since the early 90's?
Also, if the rebels do have the capacity to deliver these massive chemical attacks, why aren't they using them against the Syrian army or Assad and his cronies.

Again this is purely my own opinion:

There is a very fluid situation in Syria and apparently the rebel forces are made up by, amongst others, deserters from the Syrian armed forces. There is the possibility that rocket artillery has been captured by the opposition and they most probably have the personnel to use it. However I have no idea who "pulled the trigger" and what the exact motive was.
It wouldn't take too many Grad launchers to produce a large amount of casualties amongst an unprotected population if used effectively.

E2A as for the point as to why they haven't been used so far? Do we know they have never been used with conventional rockets? And even if they weren't maybe they were kept as an "ace up the sleeve" for the "right moment"
 
Again this is purely my own opinion:

There is a very fluid situation in Syria and apparently the rebel forces are made up by, amongst others, deserters from the Syrian armed forces. There is the possibility that rocket artillery has been captured by the opposition and they most probably have the personnel to use it. However I have no idea who "pulled the trigger" and what the exact motive was.
It wouldn't take too many Grad launchers to produce a large amount of casualties amongst an unprotected population if used effectively.

E2A as for the point as to why they haven't been used so far? Do we know they have never been used with conventional rockets? And even if they weren't maybe they were kept as an "ace up the sleeve" for the "right moment"

They're called "poor man's nukes" for a reason. But this gets us back to "does this count as the 'right moment'", though.
 
Here's the two latest Patrick Cockburn articles on Syria.

First this one deals with the recent claims about chemical weapons use and makes some of the same points we've been discussing about how hard it is to work out what's going on. Ihttp://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/the-evidence-of-chemical-attack-seems-compelling--but-remember--theres-a-propaganda-war-on-8778918.html

This quote in particular is interesting because of the reference to the "massacre" of Kurds that was being reported via PressTV that I mentioned in passing a while ago

International media organisations do their best to verify YouTube footage, but they do not have reporters who are eyewitnesses to chemical-weapons attacks. Scepticism about film produced by opposition activists has increased in the past two years but frequently it is the only evidence available. The difficulty is, can it be concocted or edited to prove a point? The propaganda war fought through YouTube is an important front in the Syrian civil war. How sure is one that a film of a Syrian soldier being decapitated by al-Qa’ida-linked fighters has not been staged by Syrian security? Opposition groups use film against each other. Film purporting to show that 400 Kurds had been massacred by the rebels appears to have been manufactured by a Kurdish party using film of similar atrocities in Syria and Iraq.

and this one http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...e-rages-for-control-of-oil-wells-8776929.html goes into a bit more detail about what's going on Northern Syria with the Kurds, which is a good article I've been looking for one like this for a while. Patrick Cockburn's coverage of Syria has been excellent I have to say.
 
Can anyone who reads French well translate this? Seems to be saying that the chemical weapons tack was on a group of US, Israeli and Jordanian commando's who've been operating in the Damascus suburbs for the last few weeks and the chemical weapons raid was presumably as a warning to the US-led alliance not to consider a fullscale invasion, as there has been a US led troop build up in Jordan.

http://www.lefigaro.fr/internationa...8-syrie-l-operation-anti-assad-a-commence.php

These reports should be treated with real skepticism of course, just wanted to link it here.

EDIT here's the google translate version

According to our information, the regime's opponents, supervised by Jordanian, Israeli and American commandos moving towards Damascus since mid-August. This attack could explain the possible use of the Syrian president to chemical weapons.Advertising
While it is too early to rule out categorically the argument put forward by Damascus and Moscow, who blame the massacre on the Syrian opposition, it is already possible to provide answers to a troubling question. What benefit would have Assad to launch an unconventional attack at the precise moment he had to allow UN inspectors - after being stranded for several months - to investigate the use of chemical weapons?

Operational logic first. According to information obtained by Le Figaro, the first trained in guerrilla warfare by the Americans in Jordan Syrian troops reportedly entered into action since mid-August in southern Syria, in the region of Deraa. A first group of 300 men, probably supported by Israeli and Jordanian commandos, as well as men of the CIA, had crossed the border on August 17. A second would have joined the 19. According to military sources, the Americans, who do not want to put troops on the Syrian soil or arming rebels in part controlled by radical Islamists form quietly for several months in a training camp set up at the border Jordanian- Syrian fighters ASL, the Free Syrian Army, handpicked.Sense of impunity

As for the summer, their protection have begun to shake Syrian battalions in the south, approaching the capital. "Their thrust would now feel into the Ghouta, where formations of ASL were already at work, but really can make a difference on the outskirts of Damascus fortress," says David Rigoulet-Roze, a researcher at the French Institute for Strategic Analysis (IFAS).
According to this expert on the region, the idea proposed by Washington would be the possible establishment of a buffer zone from the south of Syria, or even a no-fly zone, which would cause opponents safely until the balance of power changes. This is the reason why the United States has deployed Patriot batteries and F16 in late June Jordan.
Military recent pressure against al-Ghouta threatens the capital Damascus, the heart of the Syrian regime. In July, the spokesman of President al-Assad had publicly stated that the scheme would not use chemical weapons in Syria "except in case of external aggression." The intrusion of foreign agents in the south, for example ...

The other reason, if the army has actually committed a massacre in Damascus chemical is more diplomatic. Since August, 2012, when Barack Obama warned that the use of chemical weapons was a "red line" that, once crossed, could trigger a military intervention, thirteen smaller chemical attack have been identified without causing American reaction. Admittedly, the evidence is difficult to obtain, since Damascus routinely blocks the work of UN investigators. The sense of impunity felt by the Syrian regime is reinforced by the Russian protection afforded to the Security Council of the UN. Barack Obama, when he arrived at the White House, the Kremlin had proposed a "reset" of relations, not to break the link with Moscow. U.S. Chief of Staff, Martin Dempsey, the principal military adviser, justifies his opposition to intervention, even limited by the fragmentation of the Syrian opposition and the weight exerted by extremist groups.Civilians affected by the fumes of toxic agents in the attack al-Ghouta, waiting for first aid in an improvised Saqba, in Damascus suburbs, Wednesday medical center.

What are the options?

If the Syrian regime is actually behind the chemical bombardment of Damascus, it will take a further degree is a conflict that has claimed more than 100,000 lives. "There is more of a small-scale test as before. Chemical weapons are now part of the war, where they play a deterrent role. This is a message to the Americans. It is also a challenge to Barack Obama, who risks losing its legitimacy with its allies in the world, "an expert analysis of the case.
Along with clandestine operations from Jordanian soil, the international community, as each time the crisis is reaching a peak, reconsider the various military options. Arming the rebels? "If we do one day we will not say," said a diplomatic source. Surgical air strikes? Possible, but the solution involves risk regionalization of the conflict. Special forces to secure and neutralize chemical weapons sites? Israel hit neighboring Syria repeatedly. But Western intelligence services did not want to risk that stocks of chemical weapons falling into the hands of jihadist groups. Last option, inaction. It is that which seems to have bet on Bashar al-Assad in Damascus.
 
it would appear unlikely to me for two reasons, firstly that because CW have been used in Syria before, any US/Isreali/Jordanian/whoever SF operating there would be carrying personal CBRN kit and would therefore be pretty impervious to such weapons. secondly, and though i freely admit to not understanding what passes for logic in that benighted country, even Assad at his bombastic best would know that to use CW against soldiers of a foreign country, even if they were being somewhat naughty by being in Syria, would be waving a red rag to a very angry bull.

i personally don't really get why killing someone by drowning them in their own fluids is so much worse than killing them by ripping their limbs off with artillery fragments, or why sinking a ship and having its crew die of exposure is better than having the ship turned into a 5000c blast furnace, but apparently thats what countries think - the US, for example, would accept the loss of an SF team in Syria if it was caused by Artillery, or a traffic accident, or a collapsing building as the price of being in a war - they would however go utterly ballistic if the same number of soldiers were killed in a CW attack. it would be the thing most likely to bring them into the war without firing off a load of SCUD's at the US fleet in the Med. infact, possibly moreso..
 
He's killing his own people. He has strong form for this, as I think did his father (Hama) he's not using these against foreign troops.
 
He's killing his own people. He has strong form for this, as I think did his father (Hama) he's not using these against foreign troops.

"Being a dictator" is not really helpful in trying to work out why they'd do this, is it? Using chemical weapons against US troops as warning against full-scale invasion makes a hell of a lot more sense than just using chemical weapons for shits and giggles, for no other reason other than Assad's personal bloodlust.
 
"Being a dictator" is not really helpful in trying to work out why they'd do this, is it? Using chemical weapons against US troops as warning against full-scale invasion makes a hell of a lot more sense than just using chemical weapons for shits and giggles, for no other reason other than than Assad's personal bloodlust.

You're just desperate for Team America to go in there and do some consequence free ass-whooping, just like in Iraq and Afghanistan (look how well that turned out)

That's exactly what I'm not desperate for. However I'm also not keen on people who are anti-western governments (I fall mildly in that category myself btw) assuming that their enemies enemy is their friend and allowing this to continue because "there's no logic behind it". There was little logic behind what happened in Yugoslavia, there is precedent for dictators massacreing their own people, seems to me like it could be a possibility. Not saying I want the US and UK to go storming in there obviously but I would like it to stop.
 
That's exactly what I'm not desperate for. However I'm also not keen on people who are anti-western governments (I fall mildly in that category myself btw) assuming that their enemies enemy is their friend and allowing this to continue because "there's no logic behind it". There was little logic behind what happened in Yugoslavia, there is precedent for dictators massacreing their own people, seems to me like it could be a possibility. Not saying I want the US and UK to go storming in there obviously but I would like it to stop.

Nah I mistook you for someone else, apologies
 
That's exactly what I'm not desperate for. However I'm also not keen on people who are anti-western governments (I fall mildly in that category myself btw) assuming that their enemies enemy is their friend and allowing this to continue because "there's no logic behind it". There was little logic behind what happened in Yugoslavia, there is precedent for dictators massacreing their own people, seems to me like it could be a possibility. Not saying I want the US and UK to go storming in there obviously but I would like it to stop.

I don't like the crude anti-imperiailist defence of Assad either, but I also don't like people advocating "intervention" which in practical terms means either a) giving military support to Al-Queada affiliated militia's, with the goal of replacing the Assad government with Islamic state run by Al-Nusrah or Al-Qeada in Iraq and the Levant or b) full scale military occupation by the US and allies, much bigger than the force used in Iraq, fighting both the jihadi's and the supporters of Assad propping up a powerless puppet government for the next 10, 15 or however many years this process of civil war lasts. Neither of these options look very good to me. The only defence of Assad is that the alternative that comes when he's deposed could be much worse, not the sort of daft "my enemy's enemy is my friend" logic you see sometimes.
 
I don't see how intervention could work. It'd have to be without the UN because Russia and China would never allow it. If was without the UN you can bet they'd arm Assad to the teeth. Every way you look at this explicit external intervention (rather than the various ongoing 'covert) has nowhere to go.
 
Over a million child refugees from Syria under the age of 11 now. :(

The Syria crisis reached another grim milestone as UN aid agencies reported that the number of registered child refugees had reached 1 million, most of whom were under 11. Within the country, more than 2 million children have been displaced, they said.
About 7,000 children have been killed since the conflict began. Of the hundreds of people killed in an apparent gas attack in rebel-held parts of eastern Damascus on Wednesday, many were children.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/23/syria-1-million-refugee-children
 
There are certainly some signs of this being used as a classic buildup to some sort of action. I still wouldn't bet either way at this point though, mixed messages remain.
 
the apparent refusal of the Syrian Government to let the UN team in-country have a looksie is piling on the pressure within NATO, it makes the SG look as guilty as a puppy sitting next to a pile of poo...

its worth pointing out that it would be entirely possible, if access were granted, to work out exactly what agent was used, what the delivery method was, and where the weapons used for the delivery were (roughly) fired from. that would be pretty conclusive about who did it. that the SG don't want any evidence gathered about what was used and how it was delivered and from where might lead the cynical to come to a conclusion the SG probably wouldn't want them to come to.
 
the problem however is not just access, its timing - a non-persistant agent is going to be problematic to work on just a couple of days after its been used, not to mention that the weapons locating evidence is going to get destroyed by further fighting. keeping the UN team out for a week is the same as keeping them out indefinately - the US/others know that, and they know that the SG knows that as well.
 
the problem however is not just access, its timing - a non-persistant agent is going to be problematic to work on just a couple of days after its been used, not to mention that the weapons locating evidence is going to get destroyed by further fighting. keeping the UN team out for a week is the same as keeping them out indefinately - the US/others know that, and they know that the SG knows that as well.

Yup. Without something like three days it's hard to get a good reading on an agent like this. Longer and it's inconclusive, add to that the fact that Assad's war planes have been bombing the fuck out of the same area since this alleged attack and its difficult to see what evidence they can find...
 
There's a good selection of expert viewpoints here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-23794545 I agree with Halla Diyab, that it would be naive to intervene. If the West does anything anti-Assad we'll be seen by Shia all over the world as helping the Sunni to wipe them out. That could make for a huge escalation, dwarfing the 100,000 deaths in Syria so far. In all the green and blue areas of this map we'd have far more mortal enemies than we have now. (Green is minority Shia pop., blue is majority Shia pop.)

sunni-shia-world-map-493.png


So no matter how nasty the weapons we just have to sit and watch. :( We can take names for future war crimes trials, and give masses more help to refugees than we are doing already. But that's pretty much it. Syria's going to be destroyed, nothing can change that now. We'll end up a with huge Syrian diaspora and the more we help them the better our relations will be with them in the future. There are 1.5 million refugees so far, they're alive and they outnumber the dead by fifteen to one.
 
there are two problems now - Syria, and states who use CBRN weapons against CivPop.

with regards to Syria, i'm not sure what good any kind of intervention would do - both sides are full of the most odious people imaginable, people we really, really don't want in charge of a state, and the situation seems well past the point at which a negotiated, compromise solution is possible. one side is going to win, and whichever side that is, the aftermath is going to be grim in the extreme.

with regards to states that use CBRN weapons against CivPop however, i can't see how any response that is less than the most massive retaliation could be seen as anything other than a green light for other states/groups to use CBRN, knowing that the international community will again find a plausable excuse for not retaliating because its too hard, or the timing isn't right, or the politics aren't good.

i'm not sure how to reconcile those two answers - the remaining effective rebel groups are, with regards to us in the west, probably worse than the Assad Government (and not much fun for the Syrians either..) so to assist them seems self-defeating madness, but to not punish the Assad Government for using (probably) CBRN against his own civilian population appears to be storing up trouble for the future with a massive shovel.

i'm tempted to think that assassinating Assad is probably the least bad option - it keeps the Syrian state intact, it makes him the convenient scapegoat allowing some form of reconcilition process, and it focusses the mind of anyone else with a CW arsenal and a popularity problem.

unfortunately only the US has the intelligence gathering capability to get a current enough fix on him and the number of strike assets to be in the air ready to use that information. Europe is, once again, suffering a 'capability holiday'...
 
there are two problems now - Syria, and states who use CBRN weapons against CivPop.

with regards to Syria, i'm not sure what good any kind of intervention would do - both sides are full of the most odious people imaginable, people we really, really don't want in charge of a state, and the situation seems well past the point at which a negotiated, compromise solution is possible. one side is going to win, and whichever side that is, the aftermath is going to be grim in the extreme.

with regards to states that use CBRN weapons against CivPop however, i can't see how any response that is less than the most massive retaliation could be seen as anything other than a green light for other states/groups to use CBRN, knowing that the international community will again find a plausable excuse for not retaliating because its too hard, or the timing isn't right, or the politics aren't good.

i'm not sure how to reconcile those two answers - the remaining effective rebel groups are, with regards to us in the west, probably worse than the Assad Government (and not much fun for the Syrians either..) so to assist them seems self-defeating madness, but to not punish the Assad Government for using (probably) CBRN against his own civilian population appears to be storing up trouble for the future with a massive shovel.

i'm tempted to think that assassinating Assad is probably the least bad option - it keeps the Syrian state intact, it makes him the convenient scapegoat allowing some form of reconcilition process, and it focusses the mind of anyone else with a CW arsenal and a popularity problem.

unfortunately only the US has the intelligence gathering capability to get a current enough fix on him and the number of strike assets to be in the air ready to use that information. Europe is, once again, suffering a 'capability holiday'...

Assassinating Assad will keep the Syria state in tact? You're kidding right??
 
Assassinating Assad will keep the Syria state in tact? You're kidding right??

well, better than a 6 week bombing campaign would.

if Assad fell under a bus tomorrow the Syrian Army would still exist to the degree it does now, as would whatever remains of the state apparatus that provides power, healthcare, and food.

theres not much of it, but theres a damn sight more of it than there'd be after the USAF went to war with Sryia rather than just Assad.
 
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