And next, Syria?

[Casually Red]

Have I ever suggested this is the case? I think not. What I think may have actually happened with the benefit of hindsight is the following:

Assad the younger was not initially as ruthless as his dad, otherwise the protests would have been brutally and mercilessly put down, no question.

The Arab Spring and the advent of social media. The former may have lent an air of 'The times they are a changin' to events thus resulting in a certain amount of indecision from the government. The latter meant that the dissemination of information was much more rapid than in the past meaning that things quickly spiralled out of the government's control.

And this is we're I get completely exasperated with such a childish world view . As if these things..these social media campaigns..the mass text messaging and twitter, the calls for protest, the dissemination of wild rumour...that it all just happened on its own . That no agencies were behind them , no states , no muslim brotherhoods...the whole obvious fucking panoply thats been at it everywhere else .That the whole lot kicked off on the anniversary of the previous Muslim brotherhood uprising ..

Like Libya, they stick some liberally sounding twat or 2 up front and the western liberals start peeing their pants in celebration . When anyone with an ounce of wit knows that in the background, just as they were in chile , Venezuela etc it's the same bunch of rotten backward fascists angling for regime change . We've been here before so many times but they fall for it without fail . Every time .

 

[teqniq]

I am not unaware of geopolitics.

 

[Casually Red]

It's not that simple though is it. There is much other baggage that you and the other participants (very much including myself) bring to these arguments.

Lets not pretend that you were unenthusiastic about the Assad and Gaddafi regimes before shit really kicked off in their respective countries. It's therefore misleading to suggest that your stance is mostly based on simply supporting the best outcome possible in difficult circumstances. You don't nee to hold your nose to support those regimes, your worldview makes you actively cheerlead for them at the best of times, and excuse their dehumanising rhetoric and bloody acts at the worst of times.

The baggage of others including myself is certainly worthy of some criticism, I will give you that. It was quite interesting to see how the hopes of people versus tired old regimes opened up possibilities that we'd cheer for, but situations that in practice might have very similar results, but would be perceived to have been driven by different forces and players initially, would have been condemned. All the same its hard to know what I'd think differently if an arab spring situation happened again one day. A lot of this shit boils down to basic struggles and balances between freedom and security, driven to maddening extremes by historically pent up friction from all the wrongs done in various places, especially over the course of the 20th century.

And it's this again..." the hopes of people "...what people ? The ones you choose to look at because they are posing in front of the cameras with a nice banner ? But not the masses you consistently choose to ignore who knew exactly what the negative , backward forces they were up against we're really about and what they'd deliver . The ones who always have to be bombed into submission which is why your support for the other lot has to be manufactured . It's unfortunate they have to be killed but they aren't on the side of the aspirational angels .
These "possibilities " you conjured up in your own imagination, with no shortage of prompting from the western media were nothing more than myths tailored for your own consumption . Sold to you like cornflakes or chocolate bars, patio furniture . " oooh...that looks nice ". they employ advertising and pr companies precisely for that purpose . To sell it to the masses in the west . Its guardian reader aspirational bollocks . Black hats and white hats .

And it's not like this is any secret . the methods of rent a revolution outfits like Otpor are openly boasted about , openly advertised. I'll lay odds you were cheering that circus on in Belgrade back in the day as well . And what did those " hopes " and " possibilities " end up delivering ? Subservience and neo liberalism . As they were fully intended. And so on it goes .

And when that same circus rolls into Cuba in the next few years it'll be exactly the same ...hopes..dreams..aspirations...oh my. There's a poet with a guitar strumming in front of a tank.....white roses....swoon....pity about those air strikes .

Ive supported nations such as Libya , Cuba and Syria , their warts , cynicism , self interest and all because of we're they've historically stood during the world revolution...such as it was . And in the knowledge that's why the west were and are out to take them all down . In order to kill off all hope . In the sole persuit of a unipolar world we're there will never be alternatives . They've almost achieved that aim, they're pretty much on the verge of it . and for me the ramifications of that total victory are just appalling . And so I'll use my little voice to point out what they are .

 

[phildwyer]

Some. But I still hear blokes that I know up the pub moaning about 'bloomin' immigrants'. Me and my mate usually manage to shut them up politely by stating the obvious. These people are desperate.

You could also point out the yet more obvious fact that they are desperate because the British government has rendered their home countries uninhabitable.

 

[not-bono-ever]

Whatever you do, don't go to the fuckin daily mail site - top post comment of the day in an article on Syrian refugees is

"Go home and fix your country"

Cunts

 

[teqniq]

You could also point out the yet more obvious fact that they are desperate because the British government has rendered their home countries uninhabitable.

I'll go with my explanation ta. Whilst yours is to some extent true it's likely to be met with stares of blank incomprehension.

 

[Casually Red]

I am not unaware of geopolitics.

Then perhaps we might get a geo political explanation from yourself why the Zionist armed forces have carried out at least 14 air and artillery strikes today on Syrian military positions . And why they've been assisting jihadists from day one of the conflict pretty much . Democracy promotion ?

 

[Casually Red]

Dirty fucking bastards

 

[teqniq]

Then perhaps we might get a geo political explanation from yourself why the Zionist armed forces have carried out at least 14 air and artillery strikes today on Syrian military positions . And why they've been assisting jihadists from day one of the conflict pretty much . Democracy promotion ?

It's a dirty old game of cowboys isn't it?

And all the while we are polluting ourselves to death.

The wars that are currently happening there are resource wars bought on in part by climate change.

 

[Casually Red]

It's a dirty old game of cowboys isn't it?

And all the while we are polluting ourselves to death.

The wars that are currently happening there are resource wars bought on in part by climate change.

So these ...fucking wanker it has to be said....scientists haven't factored in a few billion in arms deliveries to the jihadists , western , gulf , turkish and zionist intelligence assistance and western government insistence for the past 4 years or more that the Syrian government must be overthrown . Which undoubtedly accelerated the arrival of global jihadists in their thousands in the belief another Libyan overthrow by air power was imminent .

Oh yeah, and crippling economic sanctions too .

Nope...it's just the weather . The fucking weather .


I despair , I really do .

 

[teqniq]

Oh well

 

[Casually Red]

It's a dirty old game of cowboys isn't it?

And all the while we are polluting ourselves to death.

The wars that are currently happening there are resource wars bought on in part by climate change.

Was it the bewildering unseasonable lack of rainfall in Libya caused it there too ?

 

[teqniq]

The left’s glaring inconsistency in discussing Syria

 

[InfoBurner]

http://eaworldview.com/2015/08/syria-daily-israel-strikes-assads-army/

Israel destroys Regime infrastructure and artillery with airstrikes and their own artillery, after 2 rockets, supposedly fired by the regime into the Golan Heights, set fire to a field.

I would have fought Assad had enough on his plate

 

[Casually Red]

The left’s glaring inconsistency in discussing Syria

That article is complete and utter bollocks . Frankly . Deliberately disingenuous from start to finish . So bad in fact I suspect you were merely taking the piss by even linking to it . Trying to make steam come out of my nose .

 

[Limerick Red]

The left’s glaring inconsistency in discussing Syria

Pretty sure this gezzer works for the British government!

 

[Casually Red]

http://eaworldview.com/2015/08/syria-daily-israel-strikes-assads-army/

Israel destroys Regime infrastructure and artillery with airstrikes and their own artillery, after 2 rockets, supposedly fired by the regime into the Golan Heights, set fire to a field.

I would have fought Assad had enough on his plate

So would I. And I doubt very much his guys had anything to with firing them . The Golan is crawling with al q . And Al q are currently getting their asses kicked in a string of offences, notably at al ghaab . And hey presto the zionists step in and act as their airforce.

 

[Casually Red]

Pretty sure this gezzer works for the British government!

Well...the royal united services institute...slight clue innit ?

 

[Casually Red]

Pretty sure this gezzer works for the British government!

Doesn't stop some leftys adding a like to it , does it though

 

[teqniq]

H.A. Hellyer He works/has worked for a number of organisations both government and academic. But just because his observations do not chime with your worldview does not necessarily make them untrue.

 

[Casually Red]

H.A. Hellyer He works/has worked for a number of organisations both government and academic. But just because his observations do not chime with your worldview does not necessarily make them untrue.

Of course . But his observations happen to be a complete load of old bollocks from start to finish, coated in a massive shitpile of deliberate disingenuity . Which, naturally enough, is what he gets paid to do by people such as HMG .

 

[teqniq]

Evidence?

 

[Casually Red]

Evidence?

Of what ??

 

[teqniq]

his observations happen to be a complete load of old bollocks from start to finish, coated in a massive shitpile of deliberate disingenuity

 

[frogwoman]

http://www.lowyinterpreter.org/post...ics-about-ISIS-Middle-East-is-fracturing.aspx

Slightly misleading title here but this is worth a read

Likewise, there is no cogent military option despite the fact that most actors on the ground still believe there is more to be gained by fighting rather than negotiating. The so called 'moderate Syrian rebels' are non-existent. That is a wishful label attached to a group of fractured and not so moderate fighters. The recent US campaign of drone strikes has so far failed to perceptibly roll back territory held by ISIS. Nor has the half-hearted US-led military campaign prevented the Assad regime from carrying out its own devastating strikes in rebel-held territory that purposefully targets civilians. The attack this week on Douma, a suburb of Damascus, by Syrian Government forces was one of the deadliest of the four-year war.

No one actor has mustered enough force to regain control of Syria and the current US led military 'strategy' has not decisively shifted the course of the conflict. So Syria will continue down a slow path towards fragmentation, likely dragging Iraq along with it. ISIS is consolidating territory to the east along and across the Iraqi border. In the north, Kurdish rebels are pushing their luck, seeing how far they can further their claims of autonomy while creating facts on the ground, supported by their Iraqi counterparts. The Assad regime, meanwhile, is concentrating its strength in the capital and along the coast.

 

[Casually Red]

Ok then . Pick one of the steamers out of that pile and argue its consistency . Just name one example he quotes of an inconsistent approach , and stand over it yourself rather than posting smilie in response .

 

[teqniq]

Ah no thanks, I'll give that a miss. I think the onus is on you to explain why you think it's complete bollox since that was your assertion. What I will say is that I think your worldview is very binary. You seem to be coming from a position of Assad=good as he stands as a bulwark against the western powers and their interests and also the bearded loons. I on the other hand feel that there are little or no 'good guys' in this conflict and subsequently have no horse in the race. My main concern is for the civilians caught up in it all. To paraphrase elbows upthread 'it's a whole lot more complicated than that isn't it?' Which brings me round to my climate change link just above. I should have been clearer: climate change is but one aspect of a very complex situation and I don't think the 'wanker scientists' are claiming that it is the sole driver either.

 

[Casually Red]

Ah no thanks, I'll give that a miss. I think the onus is on you to explain why you think it's complete bollox since that was your assertion. What I will say is that I think your worldview is very binary. You seem to be coming from a position of Assad=good as he stands as a bulwark against the western powers and their interests and also the bearded loons. I on the other hand feel that there are little or no 'good guys' in this conflict and subsequently have no horse in the race. My main concern is for the civilians caught up in it all. To paraphrase elbows upthread 'it's a whole lot more complicated than that isn't it?' Which brings me round to my climate change link just above. I should have been clearer: climate change is but one aspect of a very complex situation and I don't think the 'wanker scientists' are claiming that it is the sole driver either.

The onus is not on me to take apart an article piece by piece . You advanced it as an argument that people like myself were being inconsistent ,therefore the onus is on you to do more than merely stick up a link and then roll eyes when it's criticised . Ultimately, when challenged you aren't prepared to stand over it . I'm not all that surprised either .

 

[Limerick Red]

My main concern is for the civilians caught up in it all.

This is not a position, this is just throwing your hands in the air saying "isn't it all terrible" you're fine to think that, but it's not a position or an argument, if that's the extent of you're opinion on the conflict, why post links giving defacto support to the Islamists ?

 

[teqniq]

The onus is not on me to take apart an article piece by piece . You advanced it as an argument that people like myself were being inconsistent ,therefore the onus is on you to do more than merely stick up a link and then roll eyes when it's criticised . Ultimately, when challenged you aren't prepared to stand over it . I'm not all that surprised either .

I have not advanced an argument. I have posted up a link to an article because I found it interesting and thought maybe others would too. Sometimes I post links to things I do NOT agree with, fancy that eh? I happen to think there are elements of truth in what he's saying particularly:

But that wasn’t how a number of leftists saw it. There were conservative forces inside and outside the Arab world who decided to back autocracies and counter-revolutions against any movement for fundamental rights. But there were leftists who also backed a counter-revolution – when it came to Syria. For example, the editors of the hard left Beirut daily Al Akhbar and the former British MP George Galloway.

For them, the Syrian uprising was not, it seems, worthy of being supported – even though the Syrian revolutionaries in 2011 were struggling against an autocratic dictator who became ever more brutal as the conflict raged on. Rather, they threw their weight behind Bashar Al Assad – sometimes openly and blatantly, although at other times rather discreetly. In many cases, they were abject apologists for the brutality of Assad’s regime. Again, that was true among many Arab leftists, who saw in Damascus a bulwark against Israel, as well as many western leftists, who identified Mr Al Assad as a part of the broader “anti-imperialism” axis

Whereas you have dismissed it out of hand as complte bollox without demonstrating why. I hope you can see why I remain completely unconvinced