Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
so which international loons have overrun that part of syria controlled by assad?
And next, Syria?
- Thread starter Idris2002
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Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
*taps watch*
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
No it certainly is not . Syrias main population centres remain secure . Government departments, services , banks, industry and infrastructure still function despite the ravages of war. You've no idea what a failed state even is.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
A gathering of assads loons, united in their hatred for a Christian singer ...they'll be stoning her to death any minute
Absolutely no difference there with the other loons...none at all.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
yeh but you said international loons 'overran' every part of syria. but that doesn't seem to be the case now you've downgraded that to a 'presence'.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
They've " a presence " in bloody London . And Paris .
And Hezbollah are a component of the Lebanese government . Syria as a sovereign state is perfectly entitled to ask them, or indeed any other sovereign state , for military assistance in a time of crisis . They are there at the request of Syria and haven't overrun anywhere . Unlike al Qaeda and its loons who've flooded in from timbuktoo to Indonesia .
There's absolutely no serious comparison between Hezbollah and the likes of the al Qaeda factions . It's a ridiculous assertion .
Flavour
hang the bankers
Tell that to the people of Aleppo, Syria's largest city.
I didn't use the word once. I quoted CR's vision of post-Assad Syria: "a failed state completely overrun by international loons" - and despite CR's assertion that all is well and sunny in Damascus, I would say that, talking about the country as whole, it is a failed state overrun by international loons.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i never had you down for an uberpedant, especially as a) you said the situation described in Casually Red's post was the situation now, and he used the word; and b) you use the word here. i've highlighted it for you so you can see it.
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i'd say that syria's in the throes of civil war, and of course 'the state' in any such country can't be regarded as successful! but i'm not so sure i'd go as far as to say it is overrun with international loons.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Aleppo , particularly it's old city, has been badly bomb damaged . So was London in the 1940s . So was Stalingrad FFs . The states organs still functioned though . Syria is at war , it continues to function , resist and exist . It isn't a failed state by any means , not yet .
And you've left out the word genocide . Because that's what lies in wait for Syria if it falls . And Lebanon after that .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
well quite.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
One thing that's always taken me aback in this crisis is looking through the pages of the SANA site and the reports of all the mundane stuff going on . Heats for the special Olympics, sand sculpting festivals, science exhibitions and competitions...even stuff about Syrian women taking up bicycling as a hobby . All that type of thing . All going on as usual despite the massive crisis .
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
on a much smaller scale, it's always a surprise to me that you can have street fighting with the police on one street in central london (or street scuffling, if you prefer) and life goes on as normal round a couple of corners. i bet there were lots of people in liverpool on the weekend who knew nothing about the scenes around lime street.
teqniq
DisMembered
No you really haven't understood. I mainly feel for the civilians caught up in all this I and wish for all people guilty of war crimes to be held to account for what they have done. You will notice I used the word 'moderate' in connection with the FSA, obviously that does not include cannibals who should also be held to account. You on the other hand support Assad regardless of the fact that his forces have committed war crimes on many occasions, why is that? Could it be that his regime is supported by Putin's Russia much the same as the situation in Ukraine where you have adopted a similar stance? I will say much the same thing as I have said there: The are little or no 'good guys' in this conflict save perhaps for the YPG and the moderate elements of the FSA. You would also do well to remember who started indiscriminately shooting unarmed protestors at the beginning of all this.
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Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Tell us how unarmed protestors managed to shoot police and army dead from the get go ? Quite a feat .
So let's get this clear. According to you ALL of the Syrian forces and their allies are guilty of war crimes but " moderate elements " ....whatever in the name of fuck that actually means ...of the FSA are not ? Am I getting this right ? Tell us what a moderate element is ? It's 4 years now and I still haven't figured that one out ? Surely you must know something about these people you support on the basis they're " good guys " ? Please educate me.
My support for Syria has got absolutely sweet fuck all to do with Vladimir Putin . I've spelled out very clearly here why I support the Syrians and its got absolutely zero to do with Russia . Any more than my support for Cuba or Venezuela does. And if it was I'd have absolutely no compulsion about saying so either .
Pickman's model
Starry Wisdom
i don't see why a cannibal is necessarily an extremist.
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
So your too tired to explain what a " moderate " toting a rocket launcher is ?
teqniq
DisMembered
No I am bored with your own special brand of cognitive dissonance. The elements of the FSA who have assisted the Kurds in Kobane can't be all bad there are probably others too, however I wouldn't have gone as far as supplying them with arms as the Americans have done. Allegiances have a habit of shifting as we have seen and then the weaponry ends up in the wrong people's hands.
Proof?
18-25 March 2011
source
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Erm...your own link says 7 police were killed by these unarmed protestors, who were also burning down buildings .
You also seem to be saying that even the teeny weeny group of moderates you reckon Might be ok shouldn't have been armed and might join al Qaeda in a heartbeat .
Casually Red
tomorrow belongs to me
Also I'm not an anti wiki pedant, but link after link in that piece goes straight to the new yorktimes, CNN , haaretz ....I'm sorry but none of those sources could be considered in any manner objective . In fact they're wholly tainted and with a definite agenda. They're from the states who were backing this stuff from the get go .
I don't dispute for a minute the Syrian state used lethal and brutal force . What I most certainly do dispute is the absence of lethal and brutal armed elements operating in the shadows from the very beginning to create maximum destabilisation .
I don't dispute for a minute the Syrian state used lethal and brutal force . What I most certainly do dispute is the absence of lethal and brutal armed elements operating in the shadows from the very beginning to create maximum destabilisation .
teqniq
DisMembered
If you don't like the wiki have a look at the early pages of this thread instead, I've been at work so didn't want to trawl through it but if my memory serves me correctly it was government people that started the killing.
e2a
Assad the younger was not initially as ruthless as his dad, otherwise the protests would have been brutally and mercilessly put down, no question.
The Arab Spring and the advent of social media. The former may have lent an air of 'The times they are a changin' to events thus resulting in a certain amount of indecision from the government. The latter meant that the dissemination of information was much more rapid than in the past meaning that things quickly spiralled out of the government's control.
I have never made a secret of where I live on here - Cardiff, and to the best of my knowledge he has never lived here. Much as I might like to see the war criminal do time unfortunately I think it is unlikely.
Lastly please don't insinuate that I would like to see an al Quada victory it is beneath you really. If there is one thing that both of us can agree on it is that the bearded loons and their associates of whatever persuasion are completely beyond the pale.
e2a
Says the man who uses RT as a source. Haaretz is a widely respected publication often cited by arabic people as a source. At the end of the day every news outlet has an agenda.
Have I ever suggested this is the case? I think not. What I think may have actually happened with the benefit of hindsight is the following:
Assad the younger was not initially as ruthless as his dad, otherwise the protests would have been brutally and mercilessly put down, no question.
The Arab Spring and the advent of social media. The former may have lent an air of 'The times they are a changin' to events thus resulting in a certain amount of indecision from the government. The latter meant that the dissemination of information was much more rapid than in the past meaning that things quickly spiralled out of the government's control.
Wtf is this all about?
I have never made a secret of where I live on here - Cardiff, and to the best of my knowledge he has never lived here. Much as I might like to see the war criminal do time unfortunately I think it is unlikely.
Lastly please don't insinuate that I would like to see an al Quada victory it is beneath you really. If there is one thing that both of us can agree on it is that the bearded loons and their associates of whatever persuasion are completely beyond the pale.
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elbows
Well-Known Member
It's not that simple though is it. There is much other baggage that you and the other participants (very much including myself) bring to these arguments.
Lets not pretend that you were unenthusiastic about the Assad and Gaddafi regimes before shit really kicked off in their respective countries. It's therefore misleading to suggest that your stance is mostly based on simply supporting the best outcome possible in difficult circumstances. You don't nee to hold your nose to support those regimes, your worldview makes you actively cheerlead for them at the best of times, and excuse their dehumanising rhetoric and bloody acts at the worst of times.
The baggage of others including myself is certainly worthy of some criticism, I will give you that. It was quite interesting to see how the hopes of people versus tired old regimes opened up possibilities that we'd cheer for, but situations that in practice might have very similar results, but would be perceived to have been driven by different forces and players initially, would have been condemned. All the same its hard to know what I'd think differently if an arab spring situation happened again one day. A lot of this shit boils down to basic struggles and balances between freedom and security, driven to maddening extremes by historically pent up friction from all the wrongs done in various places, especially over the course of the 20th century.
teqniq
DisMembered
not-bono-ever
meh
one thing - not a plus point really- but the reality of this shit horrible situation & those who are escaping to the EU- It does seem that there is a softening of public opinion ( whatever that means) towards asylum seekers- fascist wankers aside, Im not feeling the hostiliy I would have expected in the press n ting
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