Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[JimW]

As a certain Mr Lee once intimated...

 

[andysays]

overall, I have problems with that list, but I think they have a very clear point in this. There are a lot of blokes that claim some form of feminist position that think their humour should be exempt, cause it's just a joke right? i'm not supposed to take rape, and other nasty misogenistic jokes personally, i get told that a lot, either not to take the jokes seriously, or that i'm humourless. but you're taking the suggestion you might tell a joke like that personally.

You're right, there are blokes that claim some form of feminist position that think their humour should be exempt etc, but their claim or their attempts at justification are not really here or there.

If they are making jokes about rape or other things which demonstrate their misogyny, they're not feminists, they're misogynists and should be called on it*, but the idea that all men who claim to be feminists or to be sympathetic to feminism are secretly misogynists, or should be suspected/accused of such until they've somehow proved themselves is not only offensive on a personal level, it's also deeply divisive on a political level, and when added in to all the other stuff on that list, goes a long way to putting off people (both women and men) who might otherwise be sympathetic.

If you or anyone else is actually seeking to win over people to your argument, you really do need to be aware of the dangers of

alienating people with in-group etiquette and indulgent navel-gazing.

ETA: called on it by women and, particularly, by men

 

[andysays]

yeah and not just that, it's the default that all men will do unless we intervene to stop them. Ex Ecclesia Nullus Sallus - without us there is no salvation from your base male desires. I've known people who were quite happy to spend all day repeating intersectional jargon but can tell racist jokes with the best of them once they're out of the sight of the in-group.

Translation please (and check your classical privilege )

 

[andysays]

I've known a twat who spent all day repeating trot stuff and then came out with racist bollocks when he was on his own about black people.

 

[JimW]

Translation please (and check your classical privilege )

He gives you one in the following sentence, or sort of - Ex Ecclesia means 'outside the church' I think and Nullus Sallus I presume is 'no salvation'
ETA: Never did the classical languages but I do like crosswords

 

[butchersapron]

Tells us more about delboy to be fair.

 

[andysays]

He gives you one in the following sentence, or sort of - Ex Ecclesia means 'outside the church' I think and Nullus Sallus I presume is 'no salvation'
ETA: Never did the classical languages but I do like crosswords

Makes sense now (never got the point of crosswords, but it's obviously worked for you )

 

[Delroy Booth]

He gives you one in the following sentence, or sort of - Ex Ecclesia means 'outside the church' I think and Nullus Sallus I presume is 'no salvation'
ETA: Never did the classical languages but I do like crosswords

just that, outside the church there is no salvation, pig latin

 

[JimW]

Makes sense now (never got the point of crosswords, but it's obviously worked for you )

Now we have Delroy come back and point out my guess was bollocks.
ETA: or not, splendid.

 

[butchersapron]

As Trotsky said, one cannot be right outside of the party.

 

[andysays]

As Trotsky said, one cannot be right outside of the party.

Wouldn't he have said it in Russian?

 

[JimW]

just that, outside the church there is no salvation, pig latin

When they say pig Latin do they mean people stringing together the words without doing the proper grammar etc.? Local vicar and grammar school types in days gone by?

 

[butchersapron]

Wouldn't he have said it in Russian?

Yes, he probably would have.

 

[JimW]

I watched a pretty good Melyvn Bragg thing on William Tyndale just; interesting this democratic/anti-authoritarian urge that bubbled under for so long - ETA people insisting on the need to do it themselves outside the church I mean. In his case not particularly tied to anything socially progressive but of course lots of people did make that link and he helped spur that despite himself. Also did some of the best phrases in the English Bible, including ones you might think came from the KJV.

 

[andysays]

Yes, he probably would have.

Can you?

 

[butchersapron]

Can you?

No. I think translation stuff is good. Is this some odd defend trotsky thing? Or just genuine inquisitiveness?

 

[andysays]

No. I think translation stuff is good. Is this some odd defend trotsky thing? Or just genuine inquisitiveness?

It's certainly not the former. It's probably the latter with an added bit of gently pulling your chain.

All chain pulling aside, it's perhaps interesting that T adopted the concept based on an authoritarian religious outlook. As I understand it, he didn't have any sort of religious upbringing, but it's (at least vaguely) interesting that many who have rejected a certain type or authoritarian upbringing for a purportedly radical one still retain some of their previous authoritarianism under a new guise.

 

[rekil]

• 1. Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed 38m
  2. Sick of lefter-than-thous who spend all their time attacking other leftists on the internet for having the guts to actually try things.
  1. Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed 42m
     Really angry at lefter-than-thou leftists shutting down other radical people trying to do valuable work right now. Who does that help?

This is about mollycrabapple going to Guantanamo.

This is because I've had yet another friend screamed at by leftish haters after announcing an ambitious piece of journalism she's planning.

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/345901565065953281

(But really it's about Laura)

 

[The Pale King]

This is about mollycrabapple going to Guantanamo.

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/345901565065953281

(But really it's about Laura)

Ah, makes sense.

• 1. mollycrabapple ‏@mollycrabapple 15h
  2. Apparently there's a karaoke bar on base at GTMO. I wonder how many times people have sung Johnny Cash?
  6. She will return full of penetrating insights no doubt.

 

[J Ed]

This is about mollycrabapple going to Guantanamo.

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/345901565065953281

(But really it's about Laura)

What are the criticisms of her going to Guantanamo?

 

[toggle]

Oh I know those dicks exist, as Delroy said it is the assumption that this is the default.

there's also a large number of men who seem to find varieties of feminist positions that could be potentially interpreted as accusatory as more offensive than the behavior the feminists are fighting against.

 

[butchersapron]

This is because I've had yet another friend screamed at by leftish haters after announcing an ambitious piece of journalism she's planning.

Ambition is nice. That's what privateer school is is all about.

Spoiler

ish

What is leftish? Are now taking on themselves to pronounce takfiri?

 

[rekil]

 

[butchersapron]

It's certainly not the former. It's probably the latter with an added bit of gently pulling your chain.

All chain pulling aside, it's perhaps interesting that T adopted the concept based on an authoritarian religious outlook. As I understand it, he didn't have any sort of religious upbringing, but it's (at least vaguely) interesting that many who have rejected a certain type or authoritarian upbringing for a purportedly radical one still retain some of their previous authoritarianism under a new guise.

T. was brought up in a georgian seminary and was open about the tricks they taught him.

 

[butchersapron]

View attachment 33714

Poverty of aspiration on the rest of us.

 

[J Ed]

View attachment 33714

Aspiration Nation.

 

[andysays]

T. was brought up in a georgian seminary and was open about the tricks they taught him.

My understanding obviously wrong then (not for the first time )

Does provide an example of what I was referring to, even though I didn't realise it...

 

[rekil]

What are the criticisms of her going to Guantanamo?

It's for Vice. LP is making way more of it than molly is.

https://twitter.com/mollycrabapple/status/345755022648299521

Solid CV building gig this.

 

[butchersapron]

You're not 'covering it' molly, you're using it. You are monetising it.

 

[ViolentPanda]

He gives you one in the following sentence, or sort of - Ex Ecclesia means 'outside the church' I think and Nullus Sallus I presume is 'no salvation'
ETA: Never did the classical languages but I do like crosswords

I always thought that Nullius Sallus was just a description of Bruce Grobbelar's attitude to goalkeeping - no saves.