Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[DotCommunist]

and the lumping together is an attitude that I have found offends the fans of the former. Oh no, It can't be fntasy. We have magical stuff happening but it deffo aint fantasy. No maps at the start of the book see? thus we are absolved

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

You've gone right down in my estimation on this page of the thread DC

 

[el-ahrairah]

God knows what views he think w/c women must have.

i don't think they have views. not human enough.

 

[DotCommunist]

You've gone right down in my estimation on this page of the thread DC

Its ok I'll say something funny next week.

 

[J Ed]

https://www.facebook.com/notes/kell...to-get-involved-in-feminism/10151513943788883

*This was a set of rules which women at a workshop at NUS Women's Conference devised as a guide for men who want to be involved in Feminism. Thanks to Talat Yaqoob of White Ribbon Scotland and Feminist Hero Extraordinaire for running the workshop and compiling women's views on the issue*

These are helpful tips and reminders and how you can be involved in the women’s movement, play your role in breaking down inequality in society and understand what we mean by “allies not leaders”. Feminism is an open movement, and as such, we support everyone’s involvement, including that of men, however we also believe in feminism being a safe space for women, so would appreciate you considering these rules as guidance in enabling that safe space to continue.


1. This is a privilege not a right

2. It is not your role to purposefully criticise the mandate of the liberation officer's or women leaders’ duties

3. Prepare yourself, you might be wrong

4. Here, the experiences of being a woman are as valid as the facts we use.

5. Feminism is a belief system; it not just about taking on the bits you like best

6. Sometimes it's good to just LISTEN

7. A women's opinion is as valid as yours, in some cases more so

8. Ask me don't tell me how feminism works

9. This is a 24/7 way of thinking, not just at a meeting before you tell a rape joke to the lads

10. What women go through can be difficult and sometimes rubbish, acknowledging that is important.

 

[sihhi]

Do you agree with this J Ed :

2. It is not your role to purposefully criticise the mandate of the liberation officer's or women leaders’ duties

That only women should consider themselves able to criticise such things.

 

[J Ed]

No, I think it's ridiculous. Men should probably be a bit more cautious of weighing in on issues like that but to make an absolute demarcation an article of faith is weird.

I really like this reply

Hey if I may I want to express a sisterly disagreement with points 4 and 7.

Basically the problem with the politics of experience and an emphasis on subjectivity is that different women have different experiences and different opinions. I don't think people's opinions are as a direct result of their experiences, they may be but they may also have read things that have changed their mind etc. Putting that aside, if we were to assume that people have certain views as a result of their experiences, then which voices do we listen to?

Do we listen to the loudest and most common voices? Do we listen to the quiet voices? The voices in between the most prominent voices of contemporary feminism?

Because at the moment I think that the politics of experience and the emphasis on subjectivity is leading to some voices being heard and some being marginalised. I think it leads to those who have the status being heard more often than those who do not. I think it leads to trading off some oppressions for others.

I agree in general that men need to listen, I agree in general that women's experiences are valuable, but it is not because of our experiences that we are right but because we just are. Because there is not one universal experience of being a woman, we have to make decisions about the bits we think are more valuable.

I personally feel pretty unheard in the feminist movement as a socialist-feminist. I think people love to dismiss socialist-feminism as being too based in class.. but the way I came to conclusions was by reading and also through the experience of being in a certain class.

I think the way forward is to listen to women and listen to people in oppressed and marginalised groups, but is also to work out what we think through talking about ideas.

'Horse-trading, machine politics, demagogy, reliance on status, are the weapons of the powerful. Reason, science and arguing to convince are the weapons of the dispossessed.' From page 49 of The Case For Socialist Feminism, published 1989.

What do you think?

 

[sihhi]

What do you think?

'Horse-trading, machine politics, demagogy, reliance on status, are the weapons of the powerful. Reason, science and arguing to convince are the weapons of the dispossessed.' From page 49 of The Case For Socialist Feminism, published 1989.

I agree with the quote and might suggest 'expressing common interests' as a 'weapon of the dispossessed' aswell. On demagogy: anyone opposed to an idea always says the opponent is engaged in demagogy so your answer above can be blamed as male demagoguery, as classic 'OMG what about the menz?' behaviour etc.


On this: "I think people love to dismiss socialist-feminism as being too based in class"

I find it a sad reflection that it is happening in feminist groups, usually socialist feminists are their backbone. Middle class feminists like to use working-class fellows as their activists for what appear, to me, empty goals - quotas, more liberation officers, procedural reserves for women at conferences women to be balanced with male voices, more (middle-class) women-friendly police training, more women police officers etc.
Yet this doesn't crop up in the cry for intersectionality.

If a working-class movement was to tackle sex inequality by imposing its demands :- force open creches, make workplace harassment an impossibility, increase social service provision, fully socialise pregnancy care and childcare etc, then the state will already have responded by having 50/50 women on boards and 50/50 women police officers.

As it stands now, every positive female advance in one area eg higher school grades and the like offers a backlash opportunity somewhere else eg too few male primary school teachers, destroying male grades.


Again on "I think people love to dismiss socialist-feminism as being too based in class"

Similar things are done to minority socialists who urge class cooperation against racism or immigration injustices - their ideas are too based on class, waiting for utopia, and hence damage minority interests etc - all largely false assertions but deployed with care by dominant middle-class elements of minority groups.

 

[Delroy Booth]

1. This is a privilege not a right - I remember when they told me selling The Socialist was a privilege not a right. This is basically just invoking the word privilege as a nod and a wink gesture to those with a fetish for obtuse intersectional jargon.

2. It is not your role to purposefully criticise the mandate of the liberation officer's or women leaders’ duties - So in instances where the liberation officers in the NUS collude with management in helping make redundancies, to pick an example which I saw happen at my uni and has happend at other places since, it's not our role to critisize, but to acquiesce and go along with it no matter how wrong it may be.

3. Prepare yourself, you might be wrong - but even if you're right about something, shut up anyway (see 2.)

4. Here, the experiences of being a woman are as valid as the facts we use. - I think the post J Ed posted is the best reply. This assumes all people's experiences are equal and absolute, but funnily enough objective facts are not. Would it be a bit obvious to point out the experiences of those involved in NUS feminism might differ from the experiences of women in general? Is it churlish to point out the fact that the NUS political activists are drawn from a very unrepresentative and privileged sub-section of the population who have been to uni, and that their experiences might be the exception rather than the rule?

5. Feminism is a belief system; it not just about taking on the bits you like best - This implies that to be a feminist (or ally) you have to take the whole thing as a religious dogma, even if it involves abandoning your own political opinions in the process. You can't be a feminist and cling onto your class politics, embrace the most right-wing intrepretation of individualistic liberal pro-capitalist feminism in it's entireity or face ex-communication. Ex Ecclesiam Nulla Sallus....

6. Sometimes it's good to just LISTEN - This rather depends upon what's being said, doesn't it?

7. A women's opinion is as valid as yours, in some cases more so - Oh this is a fun one. No argument with the substances of it, only that I'd hope that women's opinion being more valid than a mans is due to the opinions being on a topic that women would have direct experience and understanding of, and not just a general statement based on a crude notion of women's opinions being worth intrinsically better because they're women, regardless of what the topic in question is.

8. Ask me don't tell me how feminism works - Does that apply to Trans-exlusionary radical feminists too? If I asked them how feminism works what would I take from that? There is no universal definition of feminist as far as I can see, all sorts of reactionary right-wing arseholes haved been involved in feminism in the past alongside many good comrades and socialists. Who's the final authority here?

9. This is a 24/7 way of thinking, not just at a meeting before you tell a rape joke to the lads - I like the assumption that telling rape jokes to the lads is the default behaviour all men who are sympathetic and show an interest in feminism do. I also beat up my girlfriend, read nuts, drink stella and fart in bed too. That's pretty offensive and whoever wrote that can fuck off.

10. What women go through can be difficult and sometimes rubbish, acknowledging that is important. - bit of a banal statemen this one. Were they running out of ideas and how to round to to 10?

In all it basically amounts to saying you're not allowed to participate in feminism as a man, as any kind of supporter or ally unless you a) abandon all previous political beliefs and aspirations an accept an ill-defined variety of feminism in it's totality and b) accept a deeply subordinate passive role as a gormless cheerleader. That's the role that these rules want to impose on men who wish to get involved in feminism. Not for me thanks. That's not what I'd recognise as being an ally. That's not how you take people seriously, sometimes being ruthlessly critical is exactly what a good comrade should be doing, and keeping your mouth shut and not being critical even when it's warranted is what you do to children to stop their feelings getting hurt, naive kids who don't know any better so we shouldn't treat them the same way we'd treat anyone else.

I used to be far more willing to compromise about this kind of thing in the past, but these days nah I think it's horse-shit. They're even worse than trots for alienating people with in-group etiquette and indulgent navel-gazing.

 

[emanymton]

I find 9 incredibly offense as well.

 

[sihhi]

I used to be far more willing to compromise about this kind of thing in the past, but these days nah I think it's horse-shit. They're even worse than trots for alienating people with in-group etiquette and indulgent navel-gazing.

Many working-class males don't feel any need to request to have the label of "feminist" be applied to them from any group X or group Y, though they are anti-sexists.

https://twitter.com/talatyaqoob/status/345562030410956800

This is the organiser of that talk apparently:

Talat Yaqoob‏@talatyaqoob​

Quotas are a necessity. They bring women into public life who would otherwise be behind "entitlement". Quotas until we reach real equality.


I'm happy to make the case that quotas are not sexist and not a form of discrimination against men. However, any struggle that is serious about securing concrete social transformation must unite class interests and aim to transform conditions so that they allow women to participate fully (ie the basic 50-50 level).

To press for quotas is to demand the promotion of an extra layer of female bureaucrats - or the transformation of a group of male bureaucrats into female ones - as the first step of your struggle. A lunatic opening gambit given how bureaucratised left and feminist struggle already is.


More generally, why are the demands always for race and gender quotas? Will the NUS institute a working-class quota - given that 70% of the country is working-class shall it be in future that 70% of the NUS executive positions - as a part of public life - must have no university parents.

 

[sihhi]

Here's a fuller outline of the beliefs of the organiser/chair:

http://talatyaq.wordpress.com/2013/02/08/searching-for-a-little-muslim-feminism

Are there any athiest feminists on this thread? Where does this statement fit in:

Of course, feminism in India, China, Pakistan and countless other countries will be mostly led, rightly, by women from those cultures, but the women leading the feminist movement in a country must reflect the women they represent (much like how are parliament needs younger, non-white, non-male representation to reflect our society).

Note how representation is basically gender and race based so we get the following stuff:

We live in a multi-cultural society, so we need a little multi-cultural feminism. It wouldn’t be ok if, for example, an atheist feminist talked about Muslim women ‘s experiences of in British society.

http://talatyaq.wordpress.com/2013/02/08/searching-for-a-little-muslim-feminism/

 

[DotCommunist]

liberation officer's

please form an orderly queue in order to be liberated. A liberation officer will attend to you shortly. This is all normal and NOT repeat NOT some weird up our own arse shit.

 

[DotCommunist]

All pointing out of the gross ers apostrophe will be killed with love

 

[emanymton]

but the women leading the feminist movement in a country must reflect the women they represent (much like how are parliament needs younger, non-white, non-male representation to reflect our society)

And these peope expect me to take them seriously?

 

[kavenism]

Note how representation is basically gender and race based so we get the following stuff:

We live in a multi-cultural society, so we need a little multi-cultural feminism. It wouldn’t be ok if, for example, an atheist feminist talked about Muslim women ‘s experiences of in British society.​

http://talatyaq.wordpress.com/2013/02/08/searching-for-a-little-muslim-feminism/

This is such a load of wank. One of the best books on the current situation for muslim women in Europe was written by a white non-muslim French woman at UCL. The Hijab Controversy and Political Philosophy talks about Muslim women's experience throughout with a view to undermining the distortion and dismissal their testimony often receives in mainstream debates. Should she just not have bothered?

 

[The Pale King]

• 1. Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed 38m
  2. Sick of lefter-than-thous who spend all their time attacking other leftists on the internet for having the guts to actually try things.
  1. Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed 42m
     Really angry at lefter-than-thou leftists shutting down other radical people trying to do valuable work right now. Who does that help?

 

[The Pale King]

Right everyone, stop attacking Laurie for doing valuable work. And for having guts! She has guts and does valuable work. Got that?

 

[butchersapron]

What's she tried and what got shut down?

 

[rekil]

What's she tried and what got shut down?

Oh right, I thought she said "shot down".

 

[The Pale King]

What's she tried and what got shut down?

No idea. Stop thinking, stop critiquing, never question my intentions. never question my actions seems to be the message.
But then again, we shouldn't forget how to be a good ally:

2. It is not your role to purposefully criticise the mandate of the liberation officer's or women leaders’ duties

6. Sometimes it's good to just LISTEN

8. Ask me don't tell me how feminism works

 

[toggle]

I find 9 incredibly offense as well.

overall, I have problems with that list, but I think they have a very clear point in this. There are a lot of blokes that claim some form of feminist position that think their humour should be exempt, cause it's just a joke right? i'm not supposed to take rape, and other nasty misogenistic jokes personally, i get told that a lot, either not to take the jokes seriously, or that i'm humourless. but you're taking the suggestion you might tell a joke like that personally.

 

[toggle]

10. What women go through can be difficult and sometimes rubbish, acknowledging that is important. - bit of a banal statemen this one. Were they running out of ideas and how to round to to 10?

.

i'd say that's the only really important thing there. acknowledge the shitty expereinces women have,give a crap about that, and the rest flows from there.

 

[emanymton]

overall, I have problems with that list, but I think they have a very clear point in this. There are a lot of blokes that claim some form of feminist position that think their humour should be exempt, cause it's just a joke right? i'm not supposed to take rape, and other nasty misogenistic jokes personally, i get told that a lot, either not to take the jokes seriously, or that i'm humourless. but you're taking the suggestion you might tell a joke like that personally.

Oh I know those dicks exist, as Delroy said it is the assumption that this is the default.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Oh I know those dicks exist, as Delroy said it is the assumption that this is the default.

yeah and not just that, it's the default that all men will do unless we intervene to stop them. Ex Ecclesia Nullus Sallus - without us there is no salvation from your base male desires. I've known people who were quite happy to spend all day repeating intersectional jargon but can tell racist jokes with the best of them once they're out of the sight of the in-group.

 

[frogwoman]

I've known a trot who spent all day repeating trot stuff and then came out with racist bollocks when he was on his own about black people.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Like Stewart Lee said, all political correctness has done is force racists to express their bigotry with more creative language, it really hasn't done very much to challenge what causes it. Racists and bigots are quite capable of adapting to the constraints imposed on the language they use, and they're even better at saying what's expected of them in public and being a bigot behind closed doors.

 

[butchersapron]

Don't start posts with:

Like Stewart Lee said

Ta.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Don't start post with:



Ta.

That's a fair cop.

 

[Libertad]

Red Herring