Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[sihhi]

He is doing a PhD, and writes and Ceasefire magazine (which seems to be full of these people)

Fuck me Ceasefire Magazine how do they get away with repeating such smears:

"Add to this the largely secular appearance of the protesters, and a number of reports of head-scarfed women being attacked by secular activists, and it becomes more understandable why some religious Turks may be worried that these protests are somehow directed against them."

Some (usually men) opening Ocalan flags are attacked in some places.
The crowd is far larger than most and there's not a credible report of a single attack on any kind of woman.

 

[J Ed]

Fuck me Ceasefire Magazine how do they get away with repeating such smears:

Wow, Muslims in a Muslim country objecting to theocracy being Islamophobic really has become an established intersectionalista talking point. Jesus.

 

[caleb]

It also assumes no 'POC' reads das kapital

Well, bit of a tip: if they call it 'Das Kapital' they probably haven't.

The whole thing about "the left being unable to see anything except through the prism of class because [...] the class war is the overriding issue" misses the point. It assumes class is an identity and "the class war" is about affirming it (a la identity politics), rather than abolishing class society itself. Gender cannot be ignored from class politics, in many places (the U.S. being a prime example) neither can race. But we look at these from the perspective of how the aid capitalist exploitation, for e.g. women's unpaid labour, reproductive labour, etc. So it's not a case of class politics being pitted against race or gender, but having entirely different aims and purposes.

That's my two cents anyway.

 

[DotCommunist]

I've been away- is anyone dissing China now? he will beat you up. After he has finished with the Hooded Bastard

 

[SpineyNorman]

From an intersectionalista on facebook in response to this article

Is the intersectionalista white? Please say it's so - cos if he/she is I may be able to help you make their head explode.

 

[J Ed]

Nah

 

[SpineyNorman]

Well, bit of a tip: if they call it 'Das Kapital' they probably haven't.

The whole thing about "the left being unable to see anything except through the prism of class because [...] the class war is the overriding issue" misses the point. It assumes class is an identity and "the class war" is about affirming it (a la identity politics), rather than abolishing class society itself. Gender cannot be ignored from class politics, in many places (the U.S. being a prime example) neither can race. But we look at these from the perspective of how the aid capitalist exploitation, for e.g. women's unpaid labour, reproductive labour, etc. So it's not a case of class politics being pitted against race or gender, but having entirely different aims and purposes.

That's my two cents anyway.

Agree with the thrust of what you're saying but to be fair I don't think race can be ignored from class politics anywhere - Britain is certainly no exception. But class is the overiding issue - it determines the way other 'oppressions' (scare quotes cos I can't think of a better term, not cos I'm denying oppression) are felt, even if they are felt. For example, I can give examples of women and ethnic minorities benefiting from sexism and racism not despite racist and sexist social structures but because of them due to their location in the class system. It's this lack of a material anchor that leads identity politics down dead ends and leads to absurd propositions like bin men being privileged over Laurie Penny.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Nah

Bugger

 

[sihhi]

Blimey, this is where it leads:-

https://twitter.com/akkasistan/status/339767821909241856

The guy who wrote the Stop laughing at the EDL article engaged in a bizarre non-argument with someone who likes talking this idea:

Ibni Adam ‏@Adam_M_Ali
@AvaVidal @BenhamAlex @JosephKay76 @akkasistan Because minority PoC communities empowering themselves via satire, is class prejudice #FukOff

How come classist abuse/satire against racists is acceptable?

Racist abuse/satire against a class oppressor (The Tata family or the Obamas) is unacceptable. Everyone agrees, but when it comes to abuse that denigrates people and not the system for poor education - it's fair enough because they are oppressor.

I don't buy the there are no hierarchies of oppression line these intersectionalists spin - it's crystal clear there is an order for them it goes like this: skin colour (dark-light), gender, sexuality, (diseases, disabilities, injuries etc) then class.
You can use classist (probably get away with disablist at a push) humour against racists because they are top oppressors in the hierarchy of oppression.


Same guy tweets stuff like this:

It sounds like a joke, but I am not sure it is.

 

[cesare]

I'm not sure that getting embroiled in the ins and outs is useful. You get into that feedback loop, when elsewhere - in normal real life world - things are simpler.

 

[caleb]

Agree with the thrust of what you're saying but to be fair I don't think race can be ignored from class politics anywhere - Britain is certainly no exception. But class is the overiding issue - it determines the way other 'oppressions' (scare quotes cos I can't think of a better term, not cos I'm denying oppression) are felt, even if they are felt. For example, I can give examples of women and ethnic minorities benefiting from sexism and racism not despite racist and sexist social structures but because of them due to their location in the class system. It's this lack of a material anchor that leads identity politics down dead ends and leads to absurd propositions like bin men being privileged over Laurie Penny.

Ignored wasn't the right word, you're absolutely right here... What I meant really was that race as an "oppression" doesn't operate the same way, have the same relation to capital, etc. in all places. The history of race in the U.S., and it's relationship to capitalist exploitation, is different to that of Britain. Which is why the importation of 'privilege theory' from the States via tumblr, etc. makes little sense.

 

[sihhi]

cesare this is what set me off to look at that exchange - an intersectionalist happy with segregation by sexes - it's natural culture:

https://twitter.com/AvaVidal/status/343433023993307136

Sex segregation is good it works, Ava Vidal agrees.

This is the guy endorsing it:

 

[SpineyNorman]

Ignored wasn't the right word, you're absolutely right here... What I meant really was that race as an "oppression" doesn't operate the same way, have the same relation to capital, etc. in all places. The history of race in the U.S., and it's relationship to capitalist exploitation, is different to that of Britain. Which is why the importation of 'privilege theory' from the States via tumblr, etc. makes little sense.

Agree absolutely - the way oppressions - class, gender, etc are articulated through class (fuck, I'm turning into articul8 lol) differs from society to society and depends on specific historical circumstances.

I guess it is actually possible to conceive of a capitalist society in which neither race nor gender 'matters' but I doubt one will ever exist.

 

[J Ed]

cesare this is what set me off to look at that exchange - an intersectionalist happy with segregation by sexes - it's natural culture:

WTF? Do the BBC make you go through an intersectionalismo course to get on the telly?

 

[sihhi]

That Counterfire discussion video is like a one-way phone conversation you can't hear what the questions and comments actually were.

 

[cesare]

sihhi I wasn't intending to directly criticise you, I see (I think/hope) what you're explaining/showing. All I'm saying is that too much looking at very specific things and people can end up with our focus being reduced to examining these very specific things/people and that's not what's actually going on irl. Well, it is, but only in that very narrow focus. That's not to say that we should disregard it - far from it - but it's not the sort of thing you encounter in a queue for the checkout at Morrisons.

 

[sihhi]

sihhi I wasn't intending to directly criticise you, I see (I think/hope) what you're explaining/showing. All I'm saying is that too much looking at very specific things and people can end up with our focus being reduced to examining these very specific things/people and that's not what's actually going on irl. Well, it is, but only in that very narrow focus. That's not to say that we should disregard it - far from it - but it's not the sort of thing you encounter in a queue for the checkout at Morrisons.

Of course it's not what you get at the supermarket queue.

But it should also be obvious that using 'they can't spell' "satire" against the EDL won't get us anywhere either - and it also has its potential disadvantages. That's not about protecting the EDL.

These people are in real life but in a very odd way - middle-class immigrant people who have done well do feel some kind of need to fight for/defend their 'community' in weird and sometimes stupid efforts.

 

[cesare]

Of course it's not what you get at the supermarket queue.

But it should also be obvious that using 'they can't spell' "satire" against the EDL won't get us anywhere either - and it also has its potential disadvantages. That's not about protecting the EDL.

These people are in real life but in a very odd way - middle-class immigrant people who have done well do feel some kind of need to fight for/defend their 'community' in weird and sometimes stupid efforts.

But that's what middle class people do, isn't it? Regardless of immigrant/migrant status. They either feel guilty and compelled to fight for/defend - or trample over w/c in their rush to get ahead.

 

[treelover]

Laurie Penny on what is the point of the left

a long 50 minutes of how the left is failing needs to show humility, listen to people, etc, then absolutely no footage of the audience, I have no idea of how many, what sort of people were there, what they said, not good.

 

[kittyP]

I have never much read or contributed to this thread before but I am sure I heard LP on radio 4 this afternoon....

 

[DotCommunist]

I have never much read or contributed to this thread before but I am sure I heard LP on radio 4 this afternoon....

in a station devoted to middle class droning she would have stood out cos she's squeaky. Not to cuss on that basis, but she is. If she was talking righteous in that voice I would not be saying it. But she talks a load of crap.Which man of straw was she faced with this time? we've seen how at sea she is when faced with a right winger with a brain, surely radio bourgeois did not pit her against a decent opponent?

 

[rekil]

You should. I've watched three times; so intrigued was I by her involuntary gagging reflex. Can't decide if it's induced by her lying or anything she finds 'distateful'.

35:00 mark on the vid. Some facetouching and gulping. Not a bother til then, apart from the bit where she claims to have been involved in the SWP fiasco and stumbles all over the place.

Not sure how sciencey this is but there yiz go.

A person may constantly be trying to lubricate their throat when they lie by swallowing, gulping or clearing their throat. Lying causes their body to increase production of adrenaline, which gets their saliva pumping and then creates very little. While the saliva is surging, the subject might be gulping it down. When the saliva is no longer surging, the subject might be clearing their throat.

 

[rekil]

I've been away- is anyone dissing China now? he will beat you up. After he has finished with the Hooded Bastard

I have a (signed(!)) copy of Perdido St. Station. Is it worth the time?

 

[sihhi]

Just a general warning that lying and trauma can give off the same tells.
Lots of police assume lies in their questioning sessions because of swallowing in fact it can be remembring of a bad and uncomfortable situation.

We have zero evidence to say LP hasn't done or isn't doing work with disabled people against cuts.

 

[DotCommunist]

I have a (signed(!)) copy of Perdido St. Station. Is it worth the time?

Is it worth the time? fuck off. Its the best thing he ever laid pen to paper and produced. I'd sing the praises of his other works but you can buy them as well.

do take the time to read. I've done all of his works and it still ranks as his best imo. And I am well versed in skiffy/fantasy. Its really good

 

[smokedout]

Which man of straw was she faced with this time? we've seen how at sea she is when faced with a right winger with a brain, surely radio bourgeois did not pit her against a decent opponent?

seems to me she falls apart when pitted against a woman from her own background like mensch, who happily wears her economic privilege on her sleeve - then the whole oppressed me routine collapses because mensch would laugh her out of town if she claimed not to be privileged

 

[smokedout]

We have zero evidence to say LP hasn't done or isn't doing work with disabled people against cuts.

does she actually say that specifically in the video, because i know pretty much everyone on the dpac steering group and will probably see them monday so i can find out

 

[kittyP]

in a station devoted to middle class droning she would have stood out cos she's squeaky. Not to cuss on that basis, but she is. If she was talking righteous in that voice I would not be saying it. But she talks a load of crap.Which man of straw was she faced with this time? we've seen how at sea she is when faced with a right winger with a brain, surely radio bourgeois did not pit her against a decent opponent?

I recognised her voice from people posting videos of her on the "who's got the most grating voice" thread.
I am sure it was her and she was spouting a load of crap too.

 

[rekil]

in a station devoted to middle class droning she would have stood out cos she's squeaky. Not to cuss on that basis, but she is. If she was talking righteous in that voice I would not be saying it. But she talks a load of crap.Which man of straw was she faced with this time? we've seen how at sea she is when faced with a right winger with a brain, surely radio bourgeois did not pit her against a decent opponent?

She was up against Finn Mackay. Repeat of a midweek prog. I didn't hear it but Mackay was furious afterwards on the twitter, accusing LP of making stuff up and the like.

 

[rekil]

does she actually say that specifically in the video, because i know pretty much everyone on the dpac steering group and will probably see them monday so i can find out

Post #21496

At the moment I'm doing work with, a lot of work with disabled people against cuts and disability rights mental health rights groups across the UK.