Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Bakunin]

I wish they'd just have a fist-fight and sort it out.

Jelly wrestling.

 

[caleb]

Don't think I agree. It may have been light hearted and tapping into some internet meme or something but it does I think illustrate the way she sees these things. Rather than being messy, dangerous and not to be taken lightly they're exciting, trendy, edgy, sexy, 'nice'. It's a theme that runs through everything she writes and that throwaway remark can be read as a distillation of her world view.

Aye, no argument there, but I think that's already quite clearly reflected in the gap between Penny's rhetoric and her actual politics. For all talk of being a 'revolutionary socialist' and putting bricks through windows, or her use of that 'full communism' meme, the content of her politics doesn't ever seem to go beyond taxing the rich, protecting the welfare state, and free education. Which is fine and all, but it's basically to the right of Attlee. Hardly communism, let alone full fucking communism.

But as I say above, it's not a problem unique to Penny; I've encountered it a lot amongst the 'student radical' milieu. I remember talking to an 'autonomist Marxist', who essentially believed 'autonomism' = individualist Marxism, and whose conception of communism was high taxes. I do wonder whether these people stop to think about whether they actually, y'know, know what they're talking about.

Ironically, so often Owen Jones is a point of opposition for these people, and shite as his politics are -- he's a) at least honest about what he believes and what he represents, and b) probably, point for point, to the left of these "communists".

 

[SpineyNorman]

Aye, no argument there, but I think that's already quite clearly reflected in the gap between Penny's rhetoric and her actual politics. For all talk of being a 'revolutionary socialist' and putting bricks through windows, or her use of that 'full communism' meme, the content of her politics doesn't ever seem to go beyond taxing the rich, protecting the welfare state, and free education. Which is fine and all, but it's basically to the right of Attlee. Hardly communism, let alone full fucking communism.

But as I say above, it's not a problem unique to Penny; I've encountered it a lot amongst the 'student radical' milieu. I remember talking to an 'autonomist Marxist', who essentially believed 'autonomism' = individualist Marxism, and whose conception of communism was high taxes. I do wonder whether these people stop to think about whether they actually, y'know, know what they're talking about.

Ironically, so often Owen Jones is a point of opposition for these people, and shite as his politics are -- he's a) at least honest about what he believes and what he represents, and b) probably, point for point, to the left of these "communists".

Yeah agree with pretty much all of that - and I think what's been emphasised in the best parts of this thread is that Laurie Penny represents the problem rather than being its cause. But she's more prominent than any other case I can think of and tends to be a lot more crude and simplistic than most (though that's just a matter of scale - they're none of them exactly sophisticated in their political outlook) so if you're wanting to expose this stuff she makes a good target.

 

[rekil]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...viously-a-colossal-pile-of-twat-2013060570924

Gave up after 2 paras. I really hate the daily mash.

 

[ViolentPanda]

And also spent time in prison as a result

Polish, German and (IIRC) Austrian prisons. So did most of the other Spartacists, for their alleged sins.

 

[treelover]

The International Socialists Network (formerly of SWP) have got Penny speaking on 'Fighting Oppression: The Role of the Left' at their public meeting this weekend.

in the middle of the biggest economic crisis for decades which has seen suicides, etc.

 

[killer b]

not sure if i want her to get stuck into economics tbf TL.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Since nobody said revolutions were just about overthrowing the government I'm not really sure what point it is you're making

That he's read Dauve?

 

[ViolentPanda]

le e-pen

Which one, Daddy or Neckbrace?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Her friend did. She even managed to 'monetise' it.

And her hotness.
Now that's multi-tasking!

 

[ViolentPanda]

that would explain why Julie Bindel has been reposting the thing where Penny has told massive lies about interiewing her, what she said, and what she meant. I wish they'd just have a fist-fight and sort it out.

Bindel is probably avoiding a fist-fight in case Penny mis-represents it as a torrid sexual encounter.

 

[J Ed]

Has the effect of identity politics on left and left liberal criticism of Obama been discussed on this thread? I remember listening to a lecture by Chomsky in which he said that Obama was the CIA's preferred candidate because they recognised that having a black President could help mitigate a lot of criticism of US foreign policy, but I'm struggling to find the source.

 

[Idris2002]

Has the effect of identity politics on left and left liberal criticism of Obama been discussed on this thread? I remember listening to a lecture by Chomsky in which he said that Obama was the CIA's preferred candidate because they recognised that having a black President could help mitigate a lot of criticism of US foreign policy, but I'm struggling to find the source.

I'd say that's partial at best. Middle-class Obama fans like him because (in their eyes) he's the ultimate middle-class candidate.

If one of the black conservatives - like Alan Keyes - had been elected prez, I doubt if the same thing would apply.

What I mean is, maybe Obama's blackness trumps criticism, but if it does, it's only as part of the whole Obama package.

 

[butchersapron]

Has the effect of identity politics on left and left liberal criticism of Obama been discussed on this thread? I remember listening to a lecture by Chomsky in which he said that Obama was the CIA's preferred candidate because they recognised that having a black President could help mitigate a lot of criticism of US foreign policy, but I'm struggling to find the source.

Maybe not quite what you're after, but i'd say have a read of Black particularity reconsidered - Adolph L. Reed Jr. It is from 1979 but does recognise the contours of what was going to happen in the 80s and 90s (and what was happening around him as he wrote).

 

[frogwoman]

Gave up after 2 paras. I really hate the daily mash.

me too, horrible sneery crap. newsthump tends to be better.

 

[butchersapron]

Even fucking taffboy is better.

 

[frogwoman]

Its like a shit version of the crap sneery bits of private eye.

 

[SpineyNorman]

125 out of a possible 150
Sickeningly privileged; pay someone to check it for you.

Sweet!

Someone's been reading the PD blog and decided to rob ideas from it, then repackage them badly so it's not funny like the genuinely brilliant original and so it doesn't look like plagiarism.

 

[sihhi]

Its like a shit version of the crap sneery bits of private eye.

I don't get who or what it's sneering at here:

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/society/wetherspoons-to-open-uks-first-human-zoo-2013060470772

The ‘Wetherzoo’ promises attractions included the world’s reddest man, the two oldest-looking middle-aged women you’ve ever seen and a girl who can sustain an argument with her boyfriend for 39 hours.

A spokesman said: “The Wetherzoo will be an important scientific resource, as our researchers work to decode the grunts and growls of amazing specimens like ‘Billy’, the 29-stone Glaswegian former rail worker who uses a unique language to communicate with bar staff.

“Displayed in their natural environment of a cavernous, eerily quiet pub, these remarkable creatures will be carrying on their instinctive consumption of cheap beer just as they would in their local pub habitat.

He added: “They’re not actually in captivity, they just choose not to leave. In fact we’ve already tried ringing the ‘last orders’ bell but it has no effect.”

Web designer and father-of-two Stephen Malley said: “Like most people these days I’m obsessed with work, mortgages and materialistic one-upmanship, so I think it’s important to preserve people who couldn’t give a shit for future generations.”

people who like to be patronising about people who drink in cheap pubs or ... people who drink in cheap pubs

What is the target?

 

[J Ed]

This article was a particular low point http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...-would-have-banned-the-guardian-2013030661944

 

[sihhi]

wow - (again right-wing=sexism) -

Office bitch sweating like a navvy
27-06-11
BRITAIN was today enjoying the sight of the bitch in their office sweating like a filthy pig on heat.

It's a great day to be alive
Across the country, arrogant, self-assured women who never put a foot wrong are set to be brought down to the same level as ordinary scum like you.

With southern England set to be hotter than a cup of tea, office workers are relishing the thought of that smarmy cow dripping like a fat, hairy builder.

 

[Firky]

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...viously-a-colossal-pile-of-twat-2013060570924

It's almost is they're trying to compete with Vice for edginess. I don't read the Daily Mash but has it gone downhill, I'm sure it used to have the odd genuinely funny article? Maybe I am confusing it with The Onion (which I never found funny).

 

[el-ahrairah]

i think the thing about the mash it that the quality of the articles all depends on the contributor. i don't think there's a strong editorial line, and the contributors' politics vary, so it's a bit like frankie boyle - funny when it mocks stuff you hate but otherwise pretty vile.

 

[el-ahrairah]

wow - (again right-wing=sexism) -

i'm not even sure i understand that one. am i missing something?

 

[J Ed]

Maybe not quite what you're after, but i'd say have a read of Black particularity reconsidered - Adolph L. Reed Jr. It is from 1979 but does recognise the contours of what was going to happen in the 80s and 90s (and what was happening around him as he wrote).

Interesting read, thanks.

 

[DotCommunist]

Its like a shit version of the crap sneery bits of private eye.

its sixth form laughing at sir but it does throw up some gold. Peter Cook used to be at the helm before his unfortunate encounter with cancer and you know how cracking he could be when on one. And also how much of a prick he could be. Doing little bit racism when imitating a cockney cos yeah thats what they all think.

 

[SpineyNorman]

not sure if i want her to get stuck into economics tbf TL.

She turned up at a roundtable debate on the financial crisis that involved people like David Harvey, Paul Mattick and Andrew Kliman and trolled them from the floor by perceptively noting that they'd not mentioned women, blacks or gays. Even though none of that stuff is really relevant when you're discussing the causes of a structural crisis of capitalism (rather than its effects, in which case that stuff is very relevant). I'm wasn't even the smartest kid at a shit school but I can understand that and would have had all kinds of relevant questions to ask.

If that's anything to go by I'm pretty sure I don't want her going anywhere near economics. Especially as her deliberate glossing over class issues would mean she'd have to get it so badly wrong it's not funny.

 

[DotCommunist]

i think the thing about the mash it that the quality of the articles all depends on the contributor. i don't think there's a strong editorial line, and the contributors' politics vary, so it's a bit like frankie boyle - funny when it mocks stuff you hate but otherwise pretty vile.

I tell you whats vile, reproducing everything you ever did in standup, publishing it and claiming its a biography. Fucking thief. At least most comedians bios are a place for self reflection and the story of How I Became Me.

Boyles bio is thievery

 

[Nigel Irritable]

i'm not even sure i understand that one. am i missing something?

That depends. Did you miss that the article takes 150 words to say "fuck you uppitty women"? If not, then no.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Maybe not quite what you're after, but i'd say have a read of Black particularity reconsidered - Adolph L. Reed Jr. It is from 1979 but does recognise the contours of what was going to happen in the 80s and 90s (and what was happening around him as he wrote).

This is completely off the point, but Reed wrote the most effectively savage review of Treme I've seen:
http://nonsite.org/editorial/three-tremes