Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[newbie]

At a language school where I worked the notices had helpful diagrams to encourage sitting and discourage squatting.

as they're not designed for squatting there must be H&S implications, so I can understand that. I'm hoping someone has tried to unravel why they're not designed to be inclusive of other traditions, and whether they should be.

 

[JHE]

as they're not designed for squatting there must be H&S implications, so I can understand that. I'm hoping someone has tried to unravel why they're not designed to be inclusive of other traditions, and whether they should be.

Why what are not designed to be inclusive of other traditions? Loos? If you ask me it's sheer bloody anglo-centric arrogance, chauvinism, racism and islamophobblewobble. Do you know some loos in Britain have still not been moved to ensure that the users do not face Mecca? It's an outrage!

 

[newbie]

I don't know if it's an outrage or not; that's why I want to read the results of someone else's research & deep thought.

 

[Belushi]

In India you sometimes see toilets that can be both squatted and sat on. Maybe a national programme of replacing our eurocentric western imperialist loos with these more inclusive wc's would both make us a more tolerant nation and provide the economy with a much needed boost.

 

[phildwyer]

I didn't say that Dwyer couldn't, I said he wouldn't.

Correct on both counts.

I dıd speak wıth Allen Gınsburg once, but he wasn't dead at that tıme.

And I dıd speak wıth Bılly Bragg once too, but he dıdn't have anythıng stupıd wrıtten on hıs guıtar at the tıme.

I wonder how many other Urbanıtes have spoken wıth famous dead poets whose guıtars lacked ıdıotıc slogans?

 

[phildwyer]

Do any of the intellectually/educationally privileged here know if there's been any contemporary examination of the politics of the toilet, taking the intersections into account? Preferably without lavatory 'humour'.

There's obvious scope for looking at the class and gender dimensions of provision, and the expectations contained in language (lavatory/loo/bog) and at toilets for those with disabilities. And then there's the (imo utterly disgusting and uncivilised) attrition of the formerly widespread public toilet, now judged for their profit/loss rather than as a public service and largely outsourced to 'for customer only' pubs and cafes. Provision of public drinking water comes into that too- few parks seem to have old fashioned drinking fountains these days. And then there's the politics of what gets scrawled on the walls. I've never previously really thought about toilet arrangements for transgendered people, but there's clearly a (political) issue there.

I have gıven consıderable thought to thıs matter.

It seems to me that all toılets ought to be unısex. Quıte apart from the human rıghts ıssue, there ıs a pragmatıc consıderatıon: Cleanlıness.

Where do we fınd the cleanest toılets ın the world?

That's rıght: on aırplanes.

And apart from theır unrıvalled cleanlıness, what else ıs unıque about aırplane toılets?

That's rıght: they are unısex.

Although ıt may also be because people suspect that there mıght be cameras ın them.

 

[ViolentPanda]

More like his dad wrote 'This machine has for three years built up an operational legend of having killed fascists whilst scrupulously collating information on other stringed instruments which have claimed to have been involved in fascist-killing'.

A machine called Orwell, eh?

 

[J Ed]

http://www.penny-red.com/post/51296503263/in-these-sour-times-islamophobia-and-the-woolwich

Displacement really is the order of the day.

 

[J Ed]

If I don't acknowledge it, it won't exist - just keep calling acknowledging the existence of it racist and it will go away... whatever it is

 

[JimW]

Glad she managed to work a couple of references to writing a book in there too. All grist to the self-promoter's mill.

 

[treelover]

Why didn't this dreadful murder of an old Muslim man gain media traction?

 

[treelover]

good piece she quotes from Ash, but this bit about anglicising names has a long tradition in the Uk, with Jews, Polish, Hungarian, etc changing their name, my next door neighbour when I was young, changed their name from Janiki to James.

 

[sihhi]

This a sample of the incisive writing LP trumpts in that column:

"Later on, a coach carrying members of the EDL is attacked as it goes through Stepney Green, its windows smashed and placards and traffic cones hurled inside by young Asian men who do not bother to cover their faces: confident, perhaps, that the retreating proto-fascists will not be able to tell them apart anyway."

 

[J Ed]

I liked the bit by Ash too, but the rest of the piece just belies total ignorance of reality. The two terrorists clearly are not victims of paranoid delusions. They were attached to established groups and established networks which have become a part of institutions in a way that would not have been possible if people like her hadn't denied the possibility of that or called the pointing out of the existence of it racist.

 

[J Ed]

This a sample of the incisive writing LP trumpts in that column:

"Later on, a coach carrying members of the EDL is attacked as it goes through Stepney Green, its windows smashed and placards and traffic cones hurled inside by young Asian men who do not bother to cover their faces: confident, perhaps, that the retreating proto-fascists will not be able to tell them apart anyway."

What does proto-fascist even mean? Does the EDL bus have a timemachine?

 

[Hocus Eye.]

Glad she managed to work a couple of references to writing a book in there too. All grist to the self-promoter's mill.

It is her blog. She can use it any way she wants. I thought her post was excellent including the comment from her friend Ash.

 

[JimW]

I suspect part of the reason that horrible murder of the elderly bloke in Brum hasn't had quite the national purchase yet is that seems while a racial motive is one line of inquiry they have little to go on yet. Which compares to someone stating their motives calmly to a camera phone whilst stood with bloodied hands over the body etc. So while don't doubt racist violence is under-reported, hard to make the case conclusively comparing these two incidents.

 

[The Pale King]

She mentions that she's written on the EDL before, and links to an old article. But she dosen't mention she's met and interviewed Steven Lennon / Robinson / Cuntface. Why so coy all of a sudden?

 

[sihhi]

Weak piece, aimless quote:

I haven’t blocked any of you because I want you to know that I’m calling you out as fascists.
I hate that I’ve seen friends change their FB names to sound more anglicised: I hate that so many POC I know are rushing to assert “Britishness” as their primary identity. I hate that I feel like I have to insist on the “due process” of law (which I think is fundamentally violent and unjust anyway) because people are calling for torture. I hate trying to pretend like torture and killing aren’t things that the police do everyday anyway.

"I want you to know I'm calling you out as fascists" - so that's a campaign to isolate you and send you to Coventry, warning your trade unions about your fascism, attempting to block your organisational efforts by sane and focused class means ... no, not exactly, it's sending a note on facebook so everyone can see me personally doing it.

Reads like an attempt to impose and assert a non-British and (supposedly) all encompassing POC-identity. Not working, I fear, if the aim is to stop racism and unite across ethnic lines.

 

[JimW]

It is her blog. She can use it any way she wants. I thought her post was excellent including the comment from her friend Ash.

I know she can. Remains the sort of self-promotion I find indicative.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm catching up the last fortnight or so of meanderings of this thread, so this is out of sequence,

Do any of the intellectually/educationally privileged here know if there's been any contemporary examination of the politics of the toilet, taking the intersections into account? Preferably without lavatory 'humour'.

There's obvious scope for looking at the class and gender dimensions of provision, and the expectations contained in language (lavatory/loo/bog) and at toilets for those with disabilities. And then there's the (imo utterly disgusting and uncivilised) attrition of the formerly widespread public toilet, now judged for their profit/loss rather than as a public service and largely outsourced to 'for customer only' pubs and cafes. Provision of public drinking water comes into that too- few parks seem to have old fashioned drinking fountains these days. And then there's the politics of what gets scrawled on the walls. I've never previously really thought about toilet arrangements for transgendered people, but there's clearly a (political) issue there.

Beyond that, in this country there's an almost universal concept of what a toilet is and should be. Around the world plenty of cultures prefer to squat rather than sit, aim at the floor not the wall, use a bidet in preference to paper and (for all I know) probably much else besides. Are universities and other places where there are high numbers of (for want of a better word) foreigners, or of locals with different cultural expectations, making any efforts to cater for their preferences? If not, why not?

There must be some carbon/energy/sewage farm efficiency implications of paper-v-water, and maybe health stats relating to squatting-v-sitting.

Has anyone published on the politics of all this?

Probably not what you're looking for but I found this interesting and amusing (though I'm a bit unusual on this score - love my toilet humour - find farts amusing etc so it might not be for everyone) if not especially rigorous in its analysis.

 

[SpineyNorman]

http://www.penny-red.com/post/51296503263/in-these-sour-times-islamophobia-and-the-woolwich

Displacement really is the order of the day.

And fuck anyone who believes that violence is an answer to violence.

Fuck militant antifascists then is it Laurie?

 

[love detective]

And fuck anyone who believes that violence is an answer to violence.

this, is why we can't have nice things

 

[seventh bullet]

She'll invite the EDL to pub lunches instead.

 

[Bakunin]

this, is why we can't have nice things

Like a revolution, for example.

Those who fought Fascism in Spain are probably turning in their graves at the thought of Penny Dreadful posing as the voice of any generation.

 

[DotCommunist]

She'll invite the EDL to pub lunches instead.

killing them with red meat- a subtle plan

 

[JHE]

I hate trying to pretend like torture and killing aren’t things that the police do everyday anyway

Do Penny and her ilk really believe that Plod tortures and kills every day?

 

[Bakunin]

Do Penny and her ilk really believe that Plod tortures and kills every day?

I doubt it, but she's always been heavy on the hyperbole and short on the facts.

 

[JimW]

She practically lives in exile in New York out of fear of British police death squads who would love nothing more than to silence such a courageous journalistic voice.

 

[DotCommunist]

bob cryer/klaus barbie