Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Tom A]

I think they failed utterly with the use of puzzle pieces for their logo - which is eerily similar to the organisation Autism Speaks, which is almost universally hated by many autistic people and autism rights activists - some (myself not included) even tend to liken the puzzle piece to the Nazi swastika.

 

[frogwoman]

I think they failed utterly with the use of puzzle pieces for their logo - which is eerily similar to the organisation Autism Speaks, which is almost universally hated by many autistic people and autism rights activists - some (myself not included) even tend to liken the puzzle piece to the Nazi swastika.

arent they the ones who use corporal punishment to try and "cure" autism?

 

[Tom A]

arent they the ones who use corporal punishment to try and "cure" autism?

Not heard about the corporal punishment bit, but yes, they want to find a "cure" for autism.

 

[Fruitloop]

So apparently this exists... http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/14/1120168/-Race-Sex-and-BDSM-On-Plantation-Retreats-Where-Black-People-Go-to-Serve-Their-White-Masters

Human beings are fucking weird.

That is far more progressive than all the other guff.

 

[J Ed]

White American Jews tell all non white people how oppressed they are, and all non Jewish white Americans how oppressive they are.

L O fucking L.

It's like they took the shit people make up on Stormfront and decided to make it real

 

[ViolentPanda]

Bit waney atm

Danny Dyer weather forecast.

 

[ViolentPanda]

LOL jesus christ phil are you having a breakdown or have I touched a nerve?

He's probably having one of his "I missed the deadline again, better pretend I'm going wonko so they don't sack me" sessions.

 

[ViolentPanda]

He's only doing what sihhi did last week

Not as interestingly or effectively, though, to be fair to sihhi.

 

[Tom A]

This is what I found on my Facebook yesterday, which shared by a friend (as in an actual friend, in spite of their support of privilege theory, though thankfully they don't downplay class):

With the tagline (from the person that this was shared from, not the friend who shared it):

To all those who think 'but it's just a joke' - this is how your joke supports oppression.

Thoughts? I know that making jokes aimed at oppressed minorities is not on but "discussing feelings with like-minded others", isn't that what everyone does from time to time? "Insensitive remarks" - everyone is guilty of insensitive remarks from time to time, and they aren't necessarily at oppressed people. Also still find it hard to believe that this alone directly leads to genocide, it seems like a way of tarring and feathering anyone that offends [individual within oppressed group] with accusations that they are as bad as those whom would round [oppressed people] up, then turn on the showers and fire up the ovens.

Edit to add: "accepting negative information/screening out positive information": I, for one, am more concerned about whether the information is the truth or is a lie, rather than whether it is "positive" or "negative". People do shit things regardless of how many events they qualify for in the Oppression Olympics. Deal with it.

 

[cesare]

Not as interestingly or effectively, though, to be fair to sihhi.

That rather depends on whether sihhi is doing the feedback loop on purpose, surely?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Feedback loop

I think "circle jerk" is a better description.
Don't know about you, but I've been followed round supermarkets plenty of times, "despite" being white. I've also watched peoples' attitudes change in line with my accent, then change again when I speak on a subject.
Of course, those liberals in the US who make their living from this mea culpa bullshit aren't prepared to acknowledge that such occurrences are rooted in class, because acknowledging class means acknowledging that an even larger facet of their identities as liberals is perpetuating class cleavage for their own benefit.

 

[ViolentPanda]

A lot of this white people hating themselves seems almost like some sort of sexual fetish

Thing is, the "self-hate" is shallow, it's there merely s an "enabler" for their own prejudice, which is usually class-based.

 

[cesare]

I think "circle jerk" is a better description.
Don't know about you, but I've been followed round supermarkets plenty of times, despite being white. I've also watched peoples' attitudes change in line with my accent, then change again when I speak on a subject.
Of course, those liberals in the US who make their living from this mea culpa bullshit aren't prepared to acknowledge that such occurrences are rooted in class, because acknowledging class means acknowledging that an even larger facet of their identities as liberals is perpetuating class cleavage for their own benefit.

Yes of course, definitely, I have experienced those things but possibly in a different way because I am female.

When I said feedback loop, I was referring to the dynamics of this thread.

 

[phildwyer]

So apparently this exists... http://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/08/14/1120168/-Race-Sex-and-BDSM-On-Plantation-Retreats-Where-Black-People-Go-to-Serve-Their-White-Masters

Strıctly no peekıng.

Who can guess how many lınes untıl they mentıon Foucault?

Closest estımate wıns a sıgned copy of Delbert Booth's autobıography, Owted.

 

[TruXta]

Who opened phil's cage?

 

[frogwoman]

"accepting negative information/screening out positive information" er everyone does this don't they?

I think there's some truth to the thing in that in a climate where casual racism and discrimination are just accepted as part of everyday life you're going to see more institutionalised racism (or whatever) as well. and that means that people will have less access to housing, jobs etc and less possibility of defending themselves against attacks. which will make it more politically palatable for repressive laws etc to be passed.

i don't personally see much wrong with it it doesn't seem to be saying x leads to y necessarily does it? except I don't know where "terrorism" fits into the whole thing

 

[ViolentPanda]

Yes of course, definitely, I have experienced those things but possibly in a different way because I am female.

When I said feedback loop, I was referring to the dynamics of this thread.

As opposed to the dynamics of some of the subjects of, and participants in the thread.

 

[DotCommunist]

don't make me ban you from this thread phil. And turkey.

 

[frogwoman]

Thing is, the "self-hate" is shallow, it's there merely s an "enabler" for their own prejudice, which is usually class-based.

yeah they're never hating THEMSELVES they're hating other people

 

[cesare]

As opposed to the dynamics of some of the subjects of, and participants in the thread.

Those too.

 

[treelover]

can anyone suggest a theory why there is this growth in what is basically academic identity politics, at a time when in the U.S 40 million are on food stamps and of course food banks and poverty, benefit cuts, are happening here.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Who opened phil's cage?

Some weird animal rights fucker.

 

[DotCommunist]

Who opened phil's cage?

just read this post to the tune of 'who let the dogs out'

which amuses only me

 

[Tom A]

"accepting negative information/screening out positive information" er everyone does this don't they?

I think there's some truth to the thing in that in a climate where casual racism and discrimination are just accepted as part of everyday life you're going to see more institutionalised racism (or whatever) as well. and that means that people will have less access to housing, jobs etc and less possibility of defending themselves against attacks. which will make it more politically palatable for repressive laws etc to be passed.

i don't personally see much wrong with it it doesn't seem to be saying x leads to y necessarily does it? except I don't know where "terrorism" fits into the whole thing

I acknowledge there is a lot of fair comment in there. But sometimes it's hard to say with 100% certainty that "[This] is [oppressive]" or "no [this] is not", and in some cases it's pretty far fetched to say that they are actively enabling further [oppression] of [oppressed people].

 

[frogwoman]

Thoughts? I know that making jokes aimed at oppressed minorities is not on but "discussing feelings with like-minded others", isn't that what everyone does from time to time? "Insensitive remarks" - everyone is guilty of insensitive remarks from time to time, and they aren't necessarily at oppressed people. Also still find it hard to believe that this alone directly leads to genocide, it seems like a way of tarring and feathering anyone that offends [individual within oppressed group] with accusations that they are as bad as those whom would round [oppressed people] up, then turn on the showers and fire up the ovens.

I don't think it is saying that though as far as i'm can tell it's just ranking different types of discrimination. It's a bit simplistic but i don't think it's the worst ive seen from the privilege theory milieu

 

[frogwoman]

I acknowledge there is a lot of fair comment in there. But sometimes it's hard to say with 100% certainty that "[This] is [oppressive]" or "no [this] is not", and in some cases it's pretty far fetched to say that they are actively enabling further [oppression] of [oppressed people].

it's usually pretty easy for me to tell

 

[ViolentPanda]

can anyone suggest a theory why there is this growth in what is basically academic identity politics, at a time when in the U.S 40 million are on food stamps and of course food banks and poverty, benefit cuts, are happening here.

It's been mentioned many times on this thread.
It's about CLASS.
It's fine to be "concerned about", and to academicise about the effects of racism, because that allows you to hive off a single strand of social victims to be concerned about. Being concerned about class, though, that means challenging more than just your assumptions about a single strand of social victims, it means challenging the edifice on which your whole life, and your "privilege" is constructed, rather than just beating your chest about the effects on that single strand.

 

[Tom A]

I don't think it is saying that though as far as i'm can tell it's just ranking different types of discrimination. It's a bit simplistic but i don't think it's the worst ive seen from the privilege theory milieu

Not the worst, no, though maybe I have become a bit hypersensitised to privlege theory, having seen far too much BS associated with it, and how it's used to mercilessly beat down on people for committing the slightest infraction.

it's usually pretty easy for me to tell

I can usually figure out with something is bang out of order. It's when people go on about, say, the Mr. Creosote sketches from The Meaning of Live being fatphobic is where it gets messy.

 

[DotCommunist]

It's been mentioned many times on this thread.
It's about CLASS.
It's fine to be "concerned about", and to academicise about the effects of racism, because that allows you to hive off a single strand of social victims to be concerned about, but being concerned about class, that means challenging more than just your assumptions about a single strand of social victims, it means challenging the edifice on which your whole life, and your "privilege" is constructed, rather than just beating your chest about the effects on that single strand.

think it might be fair to say that with a lack of a clear working class as a political represented 'labour' force that affects the polity as a whole then recourse to the wheel of bullshit becomes an option?

 

[Tom A]

It's been mentioned many times on this thread.
It's about CLASS.
It's fine to be "concerned about", and to academicise about the effects of racism, because that allows you to hive off a single strand of social victims to be concerned about. Being concerned about class, though, that means challenging more than just your assumptions about a single strand of social victims, it means challenging the edifice on which your whole life, and your "privilege" is constructed, rather than just beating your chest about the effects on that single strand.

Right on.