Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[andysays]

Laurie sez:

Almost none of the queer people I'm close to- including myself - could afford to get married right now, even if we wanted to​

Maybe it's just because it's badly written (big fucking surprise, eh...), but that appears to suggest that she self-defines as "queer" because she's "close to" herself, or are her queerness and her close-to-herselfness separate and unconnected with each other?

ETA: actually I suppose they should be recognised as separate but intersecting

 

[andysays]

Is she trying to say that heterosexuals earn more or something? That heterosexuals can all afford to get married and all want to?

Either that, or that a proper "queer" wedding would cost more than a common-or-garden boring old hetro-normative one, I guess

Not that Laurie wants to pander to any of those gay stereotypes, you understand

 

[JimW]

Laurie sez:

Almost none of the queer people I'm close to- including myself - could afford to get married right now, even if we wanted to​

Maybe it's just because it's badly written (big fucking surprise, eh...), but that appears to suggest that she self-defines as "queer" because she's "close to" herself, or are her queerness and her close-to-herselfness separate and unconnected with each other?

I'm glad you quoted that,as I have to fire up a proxy to read twitter. And think how much poorer my life would have been without that nugget of wisdom from LP. Surely she could save a bundle on her wedding by getting one of her many school or uni mates with a stately home to provide the venue?

 

[J Ed]

Laurie sez:

Almost none of the queer people I'm close to- including myself - could afford to get married right now, even if we wanted to​

Maybe it's just because it's badly written (big fucking surprise, eh...), but that appears to suggest that she self-defines as "queer" because she's "close to" herself, or are her queerness and her close-to-herselfness separate and unconnected with each other?

ETA: actually I suppose they should be recognised as separate but intersecting

As an aside, can anyone explain what gender queer actually means? I've tried to work it out before but every definition I've found of it basically encompasses every human being on earth in at least one respect.

 

[andysays]

I'm glad you quoted that,as I have to fire up a proxy to read twitter. And think how much poorer my life would have been without that nugget of wisdom from LP. Surely she could save a bundle on her wedding by getting one of her many school or uni mates with a stately home to provide the venue?

Glad to help

 

[Delroy Booth]

A nerve? Touched a nerve?

My dear fellow, you have touched my soul.

There's so many jokes a less refined person could make at this point, but I'll leave you to it

 

[andysays]

As an aside, can anyone explain what gender queer actually means? I've tried to work it out before but every definition I've found of it basically encompasses every human being on earth in at least one respect.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty Laurie Penny said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'​

 

[JimW]

As an aside, can anyone explain what gender queer actually means? I've tried to work it out before but every definition I've found of it basically encompasses every human being on earth in at least one respect.

Not me, I'm more cis than Cooperative Insurance.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Stupid, violent, basically 100% ignorant of everything and probably thinks of himself as on the "Left." was Phil's description of me ages back and btw for someone who doesn't know me IRL is a good shout. Fair play Phil.

 

[coley]

There was one, originally I think. Before it became #everydayprivilegetheoryandintersectionalism interspersed with #everydaylauriepennyisms.

I'm getting to,understand how drowning must feel.

 

[cesare]

I'm getting to,understand how drowning must feel.

That's the background noise, unless you let it kill you.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

This thread has sort of swallowed the rest of the politics forum. Just about everything ends up in here.

For a brief while, I thought that the SWP squabbles and expulsions thread's expansionist ambitions threatened this thread's hegemony, but in the end the SWP just couldn't compete with the leftish commentariat's outrage-industrial base.

 

[cesare]

This thread has sort of swallowed the rest of the politics forum. Just about everything ends up in here.

For a brief while, I thought that the SWP squabbles and expulsions thread's expansionist ambitions threatened this thread's hegemony, but in the end the SWP just couldn't compete with the leftish commentariat's outrage-industrial base.

A competition between the paper sales thread and the everything else thread

 

[Nigel Irritable]

A competition between the paper sales thread and the everything else thread

It's not much of a competition really. It closed up to within 3,000 posts at one stage, but then people remembered that they hate liberals on twitter more than they hate the SWP.

(Actually, every time I look back at that SWP thread I wish that I hadn't given it such a flip and casual opening post before I knew what the substantial issue involved was).

 

[DotCommunist]

the minutes of the new ISN meeting were worth a read though

 

[J Ed]

It's not much of a competition really. It closed up to within 3,000 posts at one stage, but then people remembered that they hate liberals on twitter more than they hate the SWP.

(Actually, every time I look back at that SWP thread I wish that I hadn't given it such a flip and casual opening post before I knew what the substantial issue involved was).

You could always edit it...

 

[cesare]

the minutes of the new ISN meeting were worth a read though

Why?

Edit: that wasn't a "fucking back that up, right now you cunt" type "why" btw, I'd like to know what they're doing differently.

 

[DotCommunist]

Why?

Edit: that wasn't a "fucking back that up, right now you cunt" type "why" btw, I'd like to know what they're doing differently.

tbh honest I was amused by the 'calling callincos a wanker' line. Like something from a bizarre derek and clive sketch. Then I got bogged down reading who had been assigned to do what. Things about subs etc

 

[cesare]

tbh honest I was amused by the 'calling callincos a wanker' line. Like something from a bizarre derek and clive sketch. Then I got bogged down reading who had been assigned to do what. Things about subs etc

A bit of light entertainment, and nothing wrong with that. But, yeah as you say it's the getting bogged down in the detail. So they're not doing anything different really, just another variation of the same auld but even smaller. Is that fair?

 

[Spanky Longhorn]

Why?

Edit: that wasn't a "fucking back that up, right now you cunt" type "why" btw, I'd like to know what they're doing differently.

Mostly because of the Callinicos is a wanker line

 

[DotCommunist]

A bit of light entertainment, and nothing wrong with that. But, yeah as you say it's the getting bogged down in the detail. So they're not doing anything different really, just another variation of the same auld but even smaller. Is that fair?

by the looks of it aye- although there does seem to be a greater comitment to transparency itswim

 

[cesare]

Mostly because of the Callinicos is a wanker line

Which, to be fair, we knew anyway. The amusing part is that they've finally realised.

 

[cesare]

by the looks of it aye- although there does seem to be a greater comitment to transparency itswim

Assange is into transparency.


Edit: and my point about transparency is this: that extra information is only useful at the time in order to make more informed (and therefore hopefully better) decisions. If you get to know everything that was going on afterwards, it's just history and only any use as one of a number of prediction tools. They do have previous for this, tbf. I can envisage a dystopian version of the ISN in 5 years time. Everyone poring over the documents that they managed to obtain during the Great Delta Split of 2012/2013, in order to pinpoint what went wrong and arguments about which exact point it went wrong. Meanwhile someone looks over their shoulder and checks that the website's been updated (tick) and before they leave someone says, "Christ, I nearly forgot Has someone sorted the childcare for ISNism 2018 or the girls will fucking slay us" " no problem comrade, one of the girls is seeing to it" "thank fuck, that was a close one eh! "

 

[coley]

.

 

[coley]

That's the background noise, unless you let it kill you.

Background noise? I'm wearing google out looking up unfamiliar words and phrases.

 

[cesare]

Background noise? I'm wearing google out looking up unfamiliar words and phrases.

You've ventured into the world of hegemony and discourse, mate. Here be dragons.

 

[Nigel Irritable]

This really belongs on the other thread, but I don't think that "they're not doing anything different really" is a fair summation of the ISN. They are definitely doing things differently to the SWP in a number of ways. Although, they aren't doing anything noticeably different in the sense of doing something nobody else on the left has done before. There's a reason why they are hanging around with the ACI, their peers, and Socialist Resistance, their grandparents.

 

[coley]

You've ventured into the world of hegemony and discourse, mate. Here be dragons.

Back to google

 

[cesare]

This really belongs on the other thread, but I don't think that "they're not doing anything different really" is a fair summation of the ISN. They are definitely doing things differently to the SWP in a number of ways. Although, they aren't doing anything noticeably different in the sense of doing something nobody else on the left has done before. There's a reason why they are hanging around with the ACI, their peers, and Socialist Resistance, their grandparents.

Yep, it should be thrown like a grenade into the paper sales thread to become incorporated into what the working class needs - for sure. It's an aside here, but just an illustrative point.

 

[frogwoman]

I think Oftrot will have to see evidence of a more comprehensive programme for the class if they're going to escape being rated unsatisfactory and forced to split

also, there probably aren't enough exclamation marks