Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[cesare]

sihhi I can't give you detailed analysis but I can give you anecdotal experiences of how the likes of Trevor Phillips (for example) managed to create an impression of poor race relations in Thamesmead leaving residents of all backgrounds going "eh, you what!?!"

 

[cesare]

I can feel the future at my back and my white tears rolling under the fridge

 

[Idris2002]

Isnt this the kind of shit John Waters has been makin a livin out for for the past 20 years, with the odd interlude to write counter-revolutionary eurovison songs.

Yeah, and all because Sinead O'Connor chucked him.

Mind you, I remember my supervisor - an old-school Marxist-Feminist anthropologist - saying she thought there was a crisis of masculinity, which surprised me a lot.

 

[articul8]

"male identified people"? Does she mean men?

 

[butchersapron]

"male identified people"? Does she mean men?

no

 

[articul8]

no

people who think of themselves as men, who may or may not be recognised as men by others?

 

[sihhi]

I can feel the future at my back and my white tears rolling under the fridge

First smarten up here is a "permanent trigger warning" for you:

http://facebooksexism.tumblr.com/tw

PERMANENT TRIGGER WARNING
Please be advised, this page has a permanent trigger warning. I’m going to be sharing the words of sexists as they say them. That will include but is not limited to:

-rape jokes/rape culture/rape apologism

-victim blaming

-abusive, misogynistic language

-slut shaming

-body shaming

-gender policing

-all the -isms and -phobias (racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, ableism, etc.)

Are you taking the valid anti-oppressive mocking of "white tears" as a joke joke?

Here it is in action -

http://facebooksexism.tumblr.com/post/49161617510/so-when-someone-says-ew-youre-white-thats-not

panda-cat asked: so when someone says "ew, you're white" that's not racist? Or if someone doesn't let me join a club because I'm white? Or when I went to learn punjabi, all the kids were saying I can't because I'm not brown, that's not racist? There's no such thing as racisim against white people eh?

Nope, sorry. That’s people being mean maybe (maybe not even that) but racism is oppression + power. There is no structural inequality against white people and POC don’t disproportionately run everything like white people do.

I don’t care when POC say white hating stuff because I fucking get it. It’s the same reason I make the occasional misandry joke. It’s reminds me of a quote I saw blogged a while ago that said something to the effect of that it’s sad when people get mad about an over exaggerated reaction to inequality (misandry) and not the actual problem (misogyny.) Same applies here.

I almost feel bad for you because you have no idea how wrong you are and what dangerous territory you’re in. I mean, you’re like 2 steps from white supremacist talk.

But for now go dab your white tears.

dab them while watching this:

 

[Louis MacNeice]

"male identified people"? Does she mean men?

That depends on how you define men; if you accept self-idefication then they could be the same.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

 

[butchersapron]

I think i'm going to start a class war, as this really really has nothing to with race does it?

 

[cesare]

people who think of themselves as men, who may or may not be recognised as men by others?

Arti, some people change gender. It's not new - and I suspect it's not on the increase cos it's too damn hard to do on a whim- and it's right that they shouldn't be attacked or looked down on for it, but it's not a sizeable proportion of people. What's happening here is that there's this creation of a huge phenomena (if you believe the likes of Laurie Penny in that bubble and everyone that's buying into this rubbish) that everyone's got to tiptoe round it and make a big deal out of looking at their personal identity to drive the politics. The reality is that queer bashing (for example) actually does still go on cos a comrade actually did get physically attacked over the weekend but there's no suggestion that the politics are about making everything about that identity - it's all a bit of a myth and I don't know why people are perpetuating this stuff.

 

[frogwoman]

but if somebody says something to a white person based on their race of course it's racist, how the fuck could it not be

 

[sihhi]

I think i'm going to start a class war, as this really really has nothing to with race does it?

OK. But who will be your Vibe Watcher when you do?

 

[butchersapron]

I ain't doing a one of that shit. That party is ours and our cissy white music is going on.

 

[Limerick Red]

Arti, some people change gender. It's not new - and I suspect it's not on the increase cos it's too damn hard to do on a whim- and it's right that they shouldn't be attacked or looked down on for it, but it's not a sizeable proportion of people. What's happening here is that there's this creation of a huge phenomena (if you believe the likes of Laurie Penny in that bubble and everyone that's buying into this rubbish) that everyone's got to tiptoe round it and make a big deal out of looking at their personal identity to drive the politics. The reality is that queer bashing (for example) actually does still go on cos a comrade actually did get physically attacked over the weekend but there's no suggestion that the politics are about making everything about that identity - it's all a bit of a myth and I don't know why people are perpetuating this stuff.

Im actually confused who she is talking about here, dont we + bubble residents consider self identifying males as...well males? I know this isnt par for the course in day to day society, but am I missing something here, is there another section of people I dont know about/am ignorent of?

 

[frogwoman]

"do not assume anyone's survivor status"

asking someone about sexual assault isn't the first thing you do when you meet them is it??

 

[sihhi]

but if somebody says something to a white person based on their race of course it's racist, how the fuck could it not be

This blog is a log of obtuse privilege politics , done by a fairly apolitical science fiction story "fanfic" writer:

http://wtfsocialjustice.tumblr.com/post/50456444508/what-the-fuck-this-was-on-the-social-justice

MAY 14, 2013

What the fuck. This was on the “social justice” tag by the way.

 

[frogwoman]

This blog is a log of obtuse privilege politics , done by a fairly apolitical science fiction story "fanfic" writer:

http://wtfsocialjustice.tumblr.com/post/50456444508/what-the-fuck-this-was-on-the-social-justice

What a fucking surprise.

 

[cesare]

Im actually confused who she is talking about here, dont we + bubble residents consider self identifying males as...well males? I know this isnt par for the course in day to day society, but am I missing something here, is there another section of people I dont know about/am ignorent of?

I don't think anything's much different than it ever was*. Back in the real world, you just don't see this. That's what I was asking last night, does anyone actually see any of it.

* That's not to say that there won't be examples of racial tension, or incidents of queer bashing or whatever.

 

[frogwoman]

But I treat somebody who has changed their gender as that gender. I think that is what most people who change their gender want isn't it? I mean I could be wrong but if somebody I know has transitioned I think of them and refer to them AS THAT GENDER. Isn't that the right thing to do or am I missing something?

 

[sihhi]

I ain't doing a one of that shit. That party is ours and our cissy white music is going on.

That post is so tangential even your black-music-denying white self might do with a toolkit to keep you upright as a proper ally in 7 major liberation struggles (black, gender, disabled, fat, queer, immigrant, transgender liberations) and activist in one other struggle(class liberation)?

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/330696473165582336

@PennyRed:

Not for the first time, following some conversations, it occurs to me we need a better mental health toolkit for hackers and activists.

Remember:

Not only is mental health politically situated, we need to talk about emotional strategies

 

[Limerick Red]

That post is so tangential even your black-music-denying white self might do with a toolkit to keep you upright as a proper ally in 7 major liberation struggles (black, gender, disabled, fat, queer, immigrant, transgender liberations) and activist in one other struggle(class liberation)?

https://twitter.com/PennyRed/status/330696473165582336



Remember:

IM A FAT IMMIGRANT SHUT UP AND LET ME SPEAK!

 

[butchersapron]

Individual emotional victory seems to be what's it all about.

 

[sihhi]

"do not assume anyone's survivor status"

asking someone about sexual assault isn't the first thing you do when you meet them is it??

As I understand it, it means if you haven't ever been raped don't talk about rape or sexual violence unless you are sure there are no people who were once raped in the room.

 

[cesare]

But I treat somebody who has changed their gender as that gender. I think that is what most people who change their gender want isn't it? I mean I could be wrong but if somebody I know has transitioned I think of them and refer to them AS THAT GENDER. Isn't that the right thing to do or am I missing something?

Some people don't though. That much is true. I've seen some very unpleasant stuff just about letting someone change which toilets they use at work. But it doesn't happen all the time, it hardly happens at all. So you're aware of it and do what any decent person would do which is to say lay off with that shit. You don't build an entire political agenda from it.

 

[sihhi]

Individual emotional victory seems to be what's it all about.

Do you still have that pic of that odd calm/relaxation/counselling tent from the Climate Camp lot?

 

[butchersapron]

Do you still have that pic of that odd calm/relaxation/counselling tent from the Climate Camp lot?

That was lost on the old laptop when i was mugged - might be a copy on the matb archives.

 

[frogwoman]

But it's important to talk about! Some people might have been raped and not realise it until many months or even years later!

 

[frogwoman]

Some people don't though. That much is true. I've seen some very unpleasant stuff just about letting someone change which toilets they use at work. But it doesn't happen all the time, it hardly happens at all. So you're aware of it and do what any decent person would do which is to say lay off with that shit. You don't build an entire political agenda from it.

Aye, I know.

 

[el-ahrairah]

"do not assume anyone's survivor status"

asking someone about sexual assault isn't the first thing you do when you meet them is it??

what it means is that you don't know if someone has suffered from sexual violence or not so lay of the rape jokes / rapey behaviour etc as "well i didn't know" won't be accepted as an excuse.

i have written safer spaces policies before

 

[cesare]

But it's important to talk about! Some people might have been raped and not realise it until many months or even years later!

Yes, and it's a very silly thing to do because actually if you get more than about 10ish people together in a room the chances are quite high that at least one has been sexually harassed/abused in some way at some point.