Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[cesare]

I've never heard or seen you call someone a bitch before. A seminal moment.

See what you do to people, Laurie?

I don't often call people bitches, that's true. I am feeling very annoyed about women in that bubble at the moment

 

[grit]

...but to return to Froggie's point. We are privileged if we can make choices like this. It's similar to the idea of fucking off abroad to live/work. I think it requires at least social capital even if you do it when you're broke.

Generations of Irish people have traversed the globe looking for work, most of them starting with fuck all. Its not a choice for many, its a necessity.

 

[chilango]

Generations of Irish people have traversed the globe looking for work, most of them starting with fuck all. Its not a choice for many, its a necessity.

Indeed.

That's not the type of trip we're talking about though.

 

[cesare]

Indeed.

That's not the type of trip we're talking about though.

Exactly. We're talking about a liberal middle class crusade type trip.

 

[cesare]

Generations of Irish people have traversed the globe looking for work, most of them starting with fuck all. Its not a choice for many, its a necessity.

My dad lost an eye working on an Irish road gang. Imported Irish labour still do a vast amount of construction work on English railways.

 

[Firky]

Indeed.

That's not the type of trip we're talking about though.

Pimms in a hamper

 

[Firky]

My dad lost an eye working on an Irish road gang. Imported Irish labour still do a vast amount of construction work on English railways.

They also built a great deal of the nuclear bunkers under Manchester in the 60s, I know someone who worked on them. He says they were paid twice, once to dig and again to keep quiet of where they were digging.

 

[chilango]

Exactly. We're talking about a liberal middle class crusade type trip.

That's one way of describing it!

A little harsh, but...

 

[muscovyduck]

Bollocks. All it requires is a bit of initiative, and that is not the prerogative of any social class.

Sorry, no. I've heard this "all you need is a bit of initiative/hard work/etc" before. Didn't buy it at school, not buying it from the government, definitely not buying it from you.

 

[Firky]

Sorry, no. I've heard this "all you need is a bit of initiative/hard work/etc" before. Didn't buy it at school, not buying it from the government, definitely not buying it from you.

muscovyduck meet Phil, he's a bit of a windup artist. Generally alright but knows what buttons to press. He's well traveled and consequently thinks it's just a case of getting on your bike.

He looks silly in speedo swimming trunks - but so does everybody.

 

[cesare]

They also built a great deal of the nuclear bunkers under Manchester in the 60s, I know someone who worked on them. He says they were paid twice, once to dig and again to keep quiet of where they were digging.

I didn't know that! Maybe another question I should ask my dad, being as I was born there in the early 60s He was out on the searches on the moors after the murders, maybe he knows loads more shit I haven't asked him about.

 

[muscovyduck]

muscovyduck meet Phil, he's a bit of a windup artist. Generally alright but knows what buttons to press. He's well traveled and consequently thinks it's just a case of getting on your bike.

He looks silly in speedo swimming trunks - but so does everybody.

I've already lurked on a few Julian Assange/Occupy threads. I know all this.

 

[love detective]

Exactly. We're talking about a liberal middle class crusade type trip.

or as some put it

Palestine is just a way of saving more rent and bill money by delaying the flight home

 

[killer b]

He looks silly in speedo swimming trunks - but so does everybody.

speak for yourself. i look smoking hot in speedos x

 

[seventh bullet]

Prison is easy.

 

[cesare]

That's one way of describing it!

A little harsh, but...

You've not noticed that I am quite harsh?

Edit: I can fucking emerge victorious with seventh bullet in a prole point death match

 

[chilango]

Exactly. We're talking about a liberal middle class crusade type trip.

The difference, I think, between what we're talking about here (going overseas for "a cause", working abroad temporarily) and so on and economic migration boils down to two main aspects.

1/ the element of choice.

2/ being able to "come home".

...and these are precisely the areas where privilege and social capital come in.

Laurie's trips to Greece and NY fall into this broad area too. She can be penniless in Manhattan or engage in protest tourism in Greece precisely because her privilege enables her to have these options and to fuck off home when it goes too pear shaped.

You don't have to be rich or middle class to have enough social capital to do this, but it does make it far more likely.

 

[Favelado]

Bollocks. All it requires is a bit of initiative, and that is not the prerogative of any social class.

If you've got initiative and a trust fund, it's more likely to turn out well for you.

 

[spawnofsatan]

There is a picture of Philys in budgie smugglers? Link!

 

[Firky]

Prison is easy.

Jeffery, Jeffery Archer, is that you?

 

[chilango]

or as some put it

There is an element of truth in that for some though. However wanky it may sound.

 

[Firky]

I didn't know that! Maybe another question I should ask my dad, being as I was born there in the early 60s He was out on the searches on the moors after the murders, maybe he knows loads more shit I haven't asked him about.

Well it could be one of his tall tales. He once told me there's no yellow snails in Ireland and I spent about an hour googling that one.

 

[smokedout]

There it is then. Intelligent debate and socialist struggle are only possible if people like Penny step in and speak on behalf of a working class who on their own are not even capable of intelligent debate let alone socialist struggle

and yet on cif today a breath-takingly honest and complete unaware statement from someone in her class speaking for us and explaining what they think of us

You can try it for yourself. Imagine the most stereotypical "chav" you can. Imagine their clothes, their surroundings, their posture, their attitude. Now imagine them feeling surprise, anger, or fear. Easy right? Well now imagine them experiencing reverence, melancholy, or fascination. If you found that just as easy, congratulations. But I'd bet for a few of you it was just that bit harder. I'm ashamed to admit it was for me.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/11/benefits-claimants-other-research

 

[J Ed]

and yet on cif today a breath-takingly honest and complete unaware statement from someone in her class speaking for us and explaining what they think of us



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/11/benefits-claimants-other-research

I found that bit of it fucking bizarre but at least the Guardian is talking about this Othering of benefit claimants, something that until now seems to have been ignored.

 

[seventh bullet]

Jeffery, Jeffery Archer, is that you?

Just a bit of fun isn't it.

ymu, have a fucking word.

 

[smokedout]

yeah otherwise its not a bad piece, but i couldnt quite get over that statement

 

[cesare]

I found that bit of it fucking bizarre but at least the Guardian is talking about this Othering of benefit claimants, something that until now seems to have been ignored.

The Guardian can fucking spin on it, frankly. Along with fucking "Staggers".

 

[Favelado]

There is a picture of Philys in budgie smugglers? Link!

We're talking PARROTS.

 

[chilango]

The Guardian can fucking spin on it, frankly. Along with fucking "Staggers".

Is it just me or does "Staggers" sound like a really public school nickname?

 

[spawnofsatan]

We're talking PARROTS.