Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Nice one]

But it'd be ok if LP was a bloke? Is that what you're saying?

if laurie penny was a bloke would you dedicate 2 years of your life permanently slagging him off?

But i suppose it's to do with background and upbringing - the idea that it's unacceptable to hit a woman was one i was brought up with. But for a man to take pleasure in fantasising about hitting a woman and getting tacit approval for such an expression, definitely fucked up in my book.

 

[DotCommunist]

don't forget loving your old mum and always getting your round in

 

[frogwoman]

i'd consider the birthright thing, it's two weeks and free. i just can't afford to go for longer and to put myself at personal risk, at the moment I cant afford to miss a day off work let alone be detained indefinitely. and being thrown in a cell might be no biggie to experienced activists and all part of the "experience" and that, but i don't fancy being arrested and possibly tortured. being put in a jail cell isnt my idea of a fun holiday. while there you've still got to buy things and take out money and it all costs money.

besides my grandma and to some extent my dad sees things a bit differently and i'd rather not risk upsetting her over something like that.

 

[Nice one]

don't forget loving your old mum and always getting your round in

true enough mate How can I hate women, my mum's one.

 

[DownwardDog]

​

i would actually, but i don't have the time or money to go to palestine for a few months unpaid frankly and i don't fancy being chucked in a cell by the israeli government.

They don't chuck you in a cell just for going there!

I wouldn't bother anyway, it's an absolute shit hole. I went with my brother in law to the WB for shits, giggles and, for him, real estate investment. It was fucking horrible.

 

[frogwoman]

but if you're going with ISM etc there's a good chance of it.

 

[muscovyduck]

if laurie penny was a bloke would you dedicate 2 years of your life permanently slagging him off?

Seriously, have you actually read the thread?

 

[Nice one]

Seriously, have you actually read the thread?

every last painful post. It's not been fun, has it for you?

 

[frogwoman]

It has no effect on your record. I would much rather be banged up abroad with the consulate keeping an eye out and both them and the other prisoners cheering us on and handling all the paperwork, than get a criminal record and proper prison here.

It's easy doing time when you know you can get out by signing a bit of paper. Or even if you just know when it will be over and can imagine the time without panicking. The very worst period for us was the last night, after we were granted bail but whilst the prison were fucking us over and making it difficult to access credit cards to post it and taking forever to process us out.

And I did spy shit! Tucked my memory card in the back of my fag packet when the soldiers nabbed us so it wouldn't get wiped. Fags are the only thing you can take into prison. A visitor who shall remain nameless is offered a fag. "I don't smoke. " <pushes packet towards unnamed person> "You do now." It got to US indymedia before we met the governor.


That's my Danish buddy. Fresh out of national service. Handy guy, as was uncle Brooklyn who charmed every US-Israeli soldier into submission.

Having the whole of Israeli civil society supporting you and Palestinians advising you is very cushty. We were offered a deal by a desperate prosecutor and an unimpressed judge but we said no, Palestinians don't get to choose an easy way out and we want Israel to admit it is deporting us under martial law. We got time to reconsider, every Palestinian we spoke to, over many hours of tea and Arak, said 'fuck 'em' so we said; fuck you. And made them not convict us of anything. Deported under our own reconaissance.

Sitting in prison is easy. Everyone else does the hard work whilst you read shit magazines and cause trouble for the guards.

Do it. I've said Black Laundry for years. Would suit you down to the ground. Anarcho-queer-anti-occupation. Think they're still going. Anarchists Against the Wall. Loads of Palestinian-led, Israeli-led, foreign-led NGO stuff.

And you should do the birthright thing. Both sides matter. See both sides as they want you to see it.

seriously, being able to go to prison and not worry about consequences is a privilege.

 

[ymu]

i'd consider the birthright thing, it's two weeks and free. i just can't afford to go for longer and to put myself at personal risk, at the moment I cant afford to miss a day off work let alone be detained indefinitely. and being thrown in a cell might be no biggie to experienced activists and all part of the "experience" and that, but i don't fancy being arrested and possibly tortured. being put in a jail cell isnt my idea of a fun holiday. while there you've still got to buy things and take out money and it all costs money.

besides my grandma and to some extent my dad sees things a bit differently and i'd rather not risk upsetting her over something like that.

But that is incredibly rare. The worst fear is not that bad. Most people say there is one moment when all their fears crystallise, usually the first tank or aggro soldiers or whatever. And then it passes in seconds. The worst has happened and it was fine.

Injury is rarer still. But you can do completely safe actions. Checkpoint watch is a group of dedicated Israeli women who observe checkpoints. Men are not excluded but it is primarily women because their sons man those checkpoints and the purpose is to humanise as well as deter.

No competent group will put people at risk they don't want to take. Including arrest or imprisonment. There's always an escape route for legal observers, media support and comms. There has to be. Take a job where you need to be protected.

And the insights into class and power are profound, IMO. The collaborative nature of communities under siege. Explain anarchism to a Palestinian, especially from a camp or Gaza, and they will say "Oh, OK. We do it like that too." Political parties are underpinned by welfare and social support, combined with protest and strikes.Lots of Irish activists there too. First time I understood the horror in NI. Properly. Catholic school. I always knew. But not knew. iyswim.

Anyway. Loads of options. Don't just see one side. Do it when there is time to do both. After a good bout of seasonal work or summat. Between home and not, to save a month's rent and bills. Ask for sponsors. Some people have money but no time. They might be grateful for the chance to do something more than support MAP.

 

[Corax]

Prepare to be patronised, condescended and spoken down to now your age is common knowledge.

You don't remember what it was like when Kurt died, maaan!

Wasn't Froggy even younger when she started posting on here? I don't recall her being spoken down to because of it - she was respected from the start IIRC, because of the content and quality of her postings.

 

[Corax]

Blimey. I came to read this thread after it was mentioned elsewhere, but it's 646 bloody pages!

Is there a sensible place to start?

Or some York notes or something...?

 

[J Ed]

Blimey. I came to read this thread after it was mentioned elsewhere, but it's 646 bloody pages!

Is there a sensible place to start?

Or some York notes or something...?

A month back someone said that they were starting from the beginning, haven't heard them mention it since so maybe they are still working on it...

 

[andysays]

A month back someone said that they were starting from the beginning, haven't heard them mention it since so maybe they are still working on it...

I AM THE WAY INTO THE DOLEFUL CITY,​

I AM THE WAY INTO ETERNAL GRIEF,​

I AM THE WAY TO A FORSAKEN RACE.​

JUSTICE IT WAS THAT MOVED MY GREAT CREATOR;​

DIVINE OMNIPOTENCE CREATED ME,​

AND HIGHEST WISDOM JOINED WITH PRIMAL LOVE.​

BEFORE ME NOTHING BUT ETERNAL THINGS​

WERE MADE, AND I SHALL LAST ETERNALLY.​

ABANDON EVERY HOPE, ALL YOU WHO ENTER.​

 

[J Ed]

But i suppose it's to do with background and upbringing - the idea that it's unacceptable to hit a woman was one i was brought up with. But for a man to take pleasure in fantasising about hitting a woman and getting tacit approval for such an expression, definitely fucked up in my book.

Obviously that's fine and everything and a good principle to live by (especially when it comes to just not liking a particular journo/what that particular journo represents!) but it would be very stupid if you applied that to all people and all situations. I know someone in an abusive relationship who has been attacked by his girlfriend with a knife several times, he's hit her in self-defence and I think you'd have to be a bit of an idiot to suggest that he's in the wrong there.

 

[ymu]

Obviously that's fine and everything and a good principle to live by (especially when it comes to just not liking a particular journo/what that particular journo represents!) but it would be very stupid if you applied that to all people and all situations. I know someone in an abusive relationship who has been attacked by his girlfriend with a knife several times, he's hit her in self-defence and I think you'd have to be a bit of an idiot to suggest that he's in the wrong there.

Yes, but that has nothing to do with voicing violent fantasies:

if laurie penny was a bloke would you dedicate 2 years of your life permanently slagging him off?

But i suppose it's to do with background and upbringing - the idea that it's unacceptable to hit a woman was one i was brought up with. But for a man to take pleasure in fantasising about hitting a woman and getting tacit approval for such an expression, definitely fucked up in my book.

I'm not a fan of the white knight shit. Don't hit anyone. And don't fucking fantasise about hitting someone like you're getting off on it and/or have nothing useful to say. Self-defence is not violence.

Not hard.

(Not aimed at you, just rerailing).

 

[frogwoman]

being able to do something like that is dependent on so many things - having an employer who will give you the time off to go, and pay you enough to be able to go, having a family who will support you if you are arrested and won't either freak out or disown you, having enough money to go in the first place, not having to fear consequences (financial, social, etc) from being arrested

my mum's brother was in jail for 10 years for political reasons, i know for a fact she'd freak out if I did something similar.

 

[ViolentPanda]

If you want a punch bag here's one:

The pale complexion of the chronic masturbator.

 

[DotCommunist]

A month back someone said that they were starting from the beginning, haven't heard them mention it since so maybe they are still working on it...

a steady progression of likes marked their progress for me

 

[ymu]

Like I said, fund it by going between gaffes. Miss a month or two in rent, spend next to nothing out there, deposit repaid and in bank by the time you get home. Get some estate agents on the lookout. There's free personal internet access, and cheap cafes, all over. Stay with friends a day or two whilst you do viewings and sign paperwork, done.

Birthright covers the Israel bit. Palestine is just a way of saving more rent and bill money by delaying the flight home. Loads of birthright people stay months. You don't need cash. People pool resources, and you have to time visits to avoid mealtimes, it is impossible not to get fed.

There's always a way and you won't get a better opportunity.

 

[chilango]

being able to do something like that is dependent on so many things - having an employer who will give you the time off to go, and pay you enough to be able to go, having a family who will support you if you are arrested and won't either freak out or disown you, having enough money to go in the first place, not having to fear consequences (financial, social, etc) from being arrested

my mum's brother was in jail for 10 years for political reasons, i know for a fact she'd freak out if I did something similar.

Yup.

Having that balance between having few enough commitments/ties to be able to take a risk like that, but at the same time having enough ties to provide you with a safety net when you get out/back is a tricky one.

 

[andysays]

if laurie penny was a bloke would you dedicate 2 years of your life permanently slagging him off?

But i suppose it's to do with background and upbringing - the idea that it's unacceptable to hit a woman was one i was brought up with. But for a man to take pleasure in fantasising about hitting a woman and getting tacit approval for such an expression, definitely fucked up in my book.

I was brought up with the idea that it's generally unacceptable for anyone to hit anyone.

For anyone to take pleasure in fantasising about hitting anyone is fucked up - this goes beyond a gender issue (though there are gender-specific elements to it)

 

[andysays]

Obviously that's fine and everything and a good principle to live by (especially when it comes to just not liking a particular journo/what that particular journo represents!) but it would be very stupid if you applied that to all people and all situations. I know someone in an abusive relationship who has been attacked by his girlfriend with a knife several times, he's hit her in self-defence and I think you'd have to be a bit of an idiot to suggest that he's in the wrong there.

There's a difference between taking pleasure in fantasising about hitting someone (what Nice one is referring to) and hitting someone in self defence

 

[J Ed]

For anyone to take pleasure in fantasising about hitting anyone is fucked up - this goes beyond a gender issue (though there are gender-specific elements to it)

Anyone?

 

[ViolentPanda]

No interest in shitting all over Milne from the great height that appears to be well deserved given this new clarity?



Seriously:

He is known for his left-wing views.

Die motherfucker, die.

Standard middle-aged middle-class journo political journey fodder, though, frankly. Starts sliding towards centrism, starts agreeing with unsavoury people and unsavoury things while worrying about grabbing as much cash as possible to stuff in his pension. People who do this just make me roll my eyes. Some of them do this by deliberately setting themselves up as iconoclasts, others do it, like Milne, in a worm-like manner. They're not worth wasting much abuse on - it's not going to stop them being cunts, after all.

 

[ymu]

Yeah, the family support and stuff matters. I thought my mum would kick up a stink but she just blurted out that she was proud and did all the legwork whilst I twiddled my thumbs.

It is also harder when you have someone who might lose you. However tiny the risk it's not fair if they're not cool with it. I wouldn't take those risks now, with a dependent partner, and I've talked people with kids out of going. Priorities.

But that's what I mean about no better opportunity. Old people are boring and can't skip rent and bills as easily.

Take dotty. PD on the trail of tourist-activists, cultural imperialist pigdogs.

Or whatever. Not fluent in faux-Trot.

 

[andysays]

The pale complexion of the chronic masturbator.

We're not allowed to draw conclusions about people's habits from their appearance - didn't you get the memo?

 

[chilango]

...but ymu is also right. It can, and has been done. I know. I went out to Sudan (it was originally going to be Gaza but that fell through) with a hundred quid in my pocket, a hundred quid in the bank at home. I quit my job, left my house, and had nothing in place for my return. Nothing. But then I also had no idea how long I was gonna be there.

As some of you know it all went tits up big time...some of the repercussions are still affecting me now a decade on. Recurrent malaria. A very curious period on my CV. Etc.

But I survived with some stories to tell...

 

[chilango]

Yeah, the family support and stuff matters. I thought my mum would kick up a stink but she just blurted out that she was proud and did all the legwork whilst I twiddled my thumbs.

It is also harder when you have someone who might lose you. However tiny the risk it's not fair if they're not cool with it. I wouldn't take those risks now, with a dependent partner, and I've talked people with kids out of going. Priorities.

But that's what I mean about no better opportunity. Old people are boring and can't skip rent and bills as easily.

Take dotty. PD on the trail of tourist-activists, cultural imperialist pigdogs.

Or whatever. Not fluent in faux-Trot.

Yep.

It was then or never for me. I had nothing to lose except myself. Which I nearly did.

I couldn't do it now. I would hurt too many people.

 

[ymu]

Standard middle-aged middle-class journo political journey fodder, though, frankly. Starts sliding towards centrism, starts agreeing with unsavoury people and unsavoury things while worrying about grabbing as much cash as possible to stuff in his pension. People who do this just make me roll my eyes. Some of them do this by deliberately setting themselves up as iconoclasts, others do it, like Milne, in a worm-like manner. They're not worth wasting much abuse on - it's not going to stop them being cunts, after all.

I'm glad it's not just me.

I cannot help but read him in the voice of Rick Mayall these days.