Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[andysays]

Saying she must be lying about this because she lies about other stuff just gives me a bad taste in my mouth...

That's true, but saying someone must be lying is not the same as saying they may be lying, and certainly not the same as saying they may be unintentionally exaggerating because it feels like something is happening with the frequency they suggest.

I think that in the understandable intensity of feeling on this issue, those distinctions are in danger of being lost.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Saying she must be lying about this because she lies about other stuff just gives me a bad taste in my mouth. Searching through twitter to see if you can find what you deem to be 'enough' threats/nastiness to prove it or otherwise strikes me as very much the wrong track. That's all.

Yeah me too tbh, my gut instinct is to take that kind of thing as true unless there's really compelling evidence to suggesting otherwise, and I'm not shy about criticising Laurie Penny. I daresay some people are less familiar than others with what sort of shit she gets, so if you don't trust her then take it from us it's not an exaggeration. There might be a million and one things LP has bullshitted about in her life but this isn't one of 'em.

 

[muscovyduck]

Saying she must be lying about this because she lies about other stuff just gives me a bad taste in my mouth. Searching through twitter to see if you can find what you deem to be 'enough' threats/nastiness to prove it or otherwise strikes me as very much the wrong track. That's all.

It's not I think she must be lying, just that it's a possibility she might exaggerate or change some (relatively minor) details due to the way she's reacted to criticism before. Her main points are probably not false; overall she is talking about the truth. There's tons of misogyny online, often passive (advertisements, vague Facebook statuses etc) but sometimes it's personal and that's absolutely petrifying, because I know from experience that it's viewed as being the victim's fault. But it's the fine details that should be picked apart for an analysis of her journalism, not a personal "Oh I reckon she's lying" type thing. Because it's an argument I agree with - tackling discrimination in any form is important - and the fact that by posting on this thread I am counted by her a misogynist hurts. The fact that she can dismiss people who agree with such important points because we criticise her other work makes me wonder why I should bother applauding her for her decent work. And if I, as someone who agrees with her general points, blindly agree with everything she says, it'll only be someone seeking to dismiss those points who comes along and pulls her arguments apart.

Edit: I don't actually feel comfortable writing any of that because I'm aware of all the flaws in what I've just said and I just can't figure out how to phrase it. I think what I said needs to be taken in context with the fact that misogyny is so prevalent and there's a line as to when this thought process should be applied. I'm not sure where the line is in this situation and I'm worried about crossing it, because sexism is such a personal issue for most women, and it's expected that we don't take it personally. However, the issue isn't going away on this thread and I don't think anyone had put my viewpoint across. Usually it's best to just not say anything.

/awkward rambling

 

[frogwoman]

I can see love-detective's point to be honest, in that half the people on this thread have already been accused of misogyny and that she seems to see all criticism of herself in a light which views it as being personal rather than political.

I still think that when people are talking about this sort of stuff that you need to start from a position of believing statements that people have been sexually assualted etc, however ymu i think you were a little unfair perhaps, criticising the analysis of intersectionality isn't the same as dismissing all experiences of sexism, i have major problems with intersectional theories but i think recent events on the left have shown that some interpretations of marxist theories have enabled the comrade delta's of this world to flourish

i do see love detective's point though, in that she wasn't only talking about her own experiences but about people writing to her, and so in that context it's not unreasonable to assume that she might possibly be exaggerating or talking about political criticism such as this thread as though it is personal.

 

[smokedout]

ok last and only point, but if anyone is getting the kind of shit under discussion via email, then unless people are reasonably adept at hiding their IP and using online email, it is easily traceable. it is also very illegal, threats to kills can be punishable by up to 10 years in jail, and it breaks a whole host of other laws including the malicious communications act, people get locked up for this stuff, the police would (usually they are all bastards) take it seriously.

im not advocating that people should go to the police because they are all bastards, but there is a legal dimension to this that is worth being aware of

 

[frogwoman]

I do think that this aspect of the whole thing is perhaps better not dwelt upon though, it's easier to get her on things that we are on firmer ground upon and which we can actually prove. The danger with things like this even if she is lying is that it might encourage people to suffer in silence with online/real life threats etc, because people will think "oh well if even someone famous isn't believed or taken seriously about this shit then i might not be either"

 

[muscovyduck]

ok last and only point, but if anyone is getting the kind of shit under discussion via email, then unless people are reasonably adept at hiding their IP and using online email, it is easily traceable. it is also very illegal, threats to kills can be punishable by up to 10 years in jail, and it breaks a whole host of other laws including the malicious communications act, people get locked up for this stuff, the police would take it seriously.

im not advocating that people should go to the police because they are all bastards, but there is a legal dimension to this that is worth being aware of

If I had my way there'd be a campaign in which everyone reported all sexual harassment, sexual assault, etc to the police for a week or month. But I don't have the time to sort out the arguments for it, convincing women to do it and everything so it's just another idea I wish someone else would come up with.

 

[smokedout]

If I had my way there'd be a campaign in which everyone reported all sexual harassment, sexual assault, etc to the police for a week or month. But I don't have the time to sort out the arguments for it, convincing women to do it and everything so it's just another idea I wish someone else would come up with.

I wouldnt be surprised if laurie does, spontaneously after reading your post

 

[SpineyNorman]

Thank goodness. Here's an article about how the wor'in' clahsses don't need the middle-class to fight or speak for them. By Ellie-Mae O'Hagan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/09/working-class-dont-need-middle-class?CMP=twt_gu

In addition to the misuse of Marxist terminology Butchers mentioned we have this little gem:

If working-class people want to resist tyrannical bosses and landlords, they need to represent themselves, not have the middle class speak for them. That is how the women and girls working in the Bryant and May match factory in east London achieved better living standards in the match girls strike of 1888. It is how dockers working in the Port of London strengthened the British labour movement a year later, which has since won concessions such as standardised holiday pay, the minimum wage and the eight-hour day.

It's hard to think of a worse example than the match girls. Truth is they did have the middle classes speaking for them - most prominently Annie Besant. I think the leaders of their union were middle class too but not completely sure on that one.

What's shocking here is that the argument she's making in this particular quote is basically correct - that working class self-organisation is what matters - but she manages to support it with an example that would suggest that the opposite is true.

She really doesn't have a fucking clue does she? Dishonest though she might be, I think LP does understand feminist theory, and annoying though he is Owen Jones does have some idea what he's on about. I've not read any of her stuff before but if this is anything to go by this one is just completely clueless - how on earth does she get paid to write this crap?

 

[toggle]

If I had my way there'd be a campaign in which everyone reported all sexual harassment, sexual assault, etc to the police for a week or month. But I don't have the time to sort out the arguments for it, convincing women to do it and everything so it's just another idea I wish someone else would come up with.

 

[muscovyduck]

I wouldnt be surprised if laurie does, spontaneously after reading your post

I am going to go absolutely ape-shit if that happens. I'm too old for this.

 

[toggle]

i wouldn't.

the tit might do something useful for a change

 

[frogwoman]

I can't say i've ever had those sort of threats about death threats and rape etc except when I was posting on fascist boards as a teenager with people who were actually capable of doing that sort of thing. I am pretty much over it now but I was a bit traumatised about it for years, one guy who I was speaking to in a very naive attempt to convince him not to be a fash , put himself on webcam and posed with pictures of his guns, when I used to troll those boards as a kid and take the piss out of them I used to get PMs off of them asking for sex and saying things like "i'd sleep with you if you weren't a kike"

i never get threats on the same level now, because i don't make a habit of speak to fash on the internet even to take the piss, or ever speak or associate with that sort of person. i do feel uncomfortable when I see casual sexism on here though, I don't always feel able to call it out but when I do feel able to then I do

Its the more low level stuff, like waiting for a bus late at night and some weird bloke not wanting to leave you alone and hanging around asking you for your number, or asking you if you've got a boyfriend. It happens quite regularly or used to happen anyway, I get around it now by ignoring people or reading a book. I think it's more of a problem in other places, i was in belgium a couple years ago visiting a mate and i actually felt quite threatened at points by people (possibly more so coz i couldnt speak the language).

it's also quite common to get hassled on nights out etc.

of course i think an atmosphere of this sort of low to medium level harassment probably leads women to be alot more para than they should, like some people are shocked to find out that i walk back from the train station at night which is a fifteen minute walk, by myself, despite the fact that i've been doing the same walk for most of my life. i'm not paranoid about that but there are other things i'm probably a bit more paranoid about.

 

[muscovyduck]

i wouldn't.

the tit might do something useful for a change

She won't though. It'd be a way for her to further her own career so she carries more weight next time she accidentally calls me a middle-age man. And obviously as that happens, everyone will pile on and it'd be used to make completely wrong political messages and politicians will wriggle out of doing anything about it.

This is why we can't have nice things. Like a revolution.

 

[frogwoman]

i've had that shit from exes as well. once an ex boyfriend i went out with a few years back when i wat at school told me while i was sitting in the car with him, i think when i was about 21/22 or so and meeting up with him the first time in many years (because he'd been a stalky nutcase, but i thought he might of changed and gave him the benefit of the doubt), when he gave me a lift home, that it was so dark and it would be easy for him to rape me and nobody would know needless to say i never spoke to him again.

i posted on here about what a mentalist he was about the time that it happened if anyone can be arsed to look

he was a fuckin fruitcake tho, believed in nazis on the moon

 

[toggle]

when he gave me a lift home, that it was so dark and it would be easy for him to rape me and nobody would know needless to say i never spoke to him again.

ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

seriously ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww

 

[frogwoman]

i know, at the time i thought it was more funny than scary though i just couldn't take him seriously with his flying saucers and nazis on the moon bollocks

 

[ymu]

I can see love-detective's point to be honest, in that half the people on this thread have already been accused of misogyny and that she seems to see all criticism of herself in a light which views it as being personal rather than political.

I still think that when people are talking about this sort of stuff that you need to start from a position of believing statements that people have been sexually assualted etc, however ymu i think you were a little unfair perhaps, criticising the analysis of intersectionality isn't the same as dismissing all experiences of sexism, i have major problems with intersectional theories but i think recent events on the left have shown that some interpretations of marxist theories have enabled the comrade delta's of this world to flourish

i do see love detective's point though, in that she wasn't only talking about her own experiences but about people writing to her, and so in that context it's not unreasonable to assume that she might possibly be exaggerating or talking about political criticism such as this thread as though it is personal.

It has nothing to do with the truth or who might be lying.

I am making only one point, and it is exactly the same point as this:

Depict Bush as a chimp and it says he is stupid. Depict Obama as a chimp and it says you are racist.

If anyone says they have been sexually assaulted or threatened, you believe them. Because of Savile and Hall and Starr and Harris and Worboys and Rochdale and figure-fiddling coppers and, above all, because of the rape conviction rate of only 7% of the minority of cases that get reported.

And one of the main reasons so few get reported is that being disbelieved is often worse than the original crime. Hence the flood of allegations now that people know they might have a chance of justice.

So you don't ever express doubt. Not easy whilst also maintaining innocent until guilty. But you don't do it. Because doubt enables rapists. And you'd have to have been fucking asleep for the last 30 years not to know that.

Go on... rape her... she won't report it...

I am also finding it particularly difficult to stomach when the SWP has just imploded because it was virtually inviting senior men to rape female members. Has no one joined the dots yet?

 

[frogwoman]

but i'm not saying anything different

 

[equationgirl]

Ah yes, the unilad example. I cannot even begin to describe how horrified I was with that.

 

[ymu]

ok last and only point, but if anyone is getting the kind of shit under discussion via email, then unless people are reasonably adept at hiding their IP and using online email, it is easily traceable. it is also very illegal, threats to kills can be punishable by up to 10 years in jail, and it breaks a whole host of other laws including the malicious communications act, people get locked up for this stuff, the police would (usually they are all bastards) take it seriously.

im not advocating that people should go to the police because they are all bastards, but there is a legal dimension to this that is worth being aware of

If?

Seriously?

Did you read those links from earlier? Rapebook have no idea how their personal details got handed out, but they did. The moderator had to leave her home and the site was shut because no one else would risk it.

Your naivety is sweet, but entirely misplaced.

But you know, thanks for reminding us that the police should never be contacted. I've heard that somewhere before... Really shitty thing to say if you made the connection, If you didn't make the connection, well ... how? How could you miss it?

 

[ymu]

If I had my way there'd be a campaign in which everyone reported all sexual harassment, sexual assault, etc to the police for a week or month. But I don't have the time to sort out the arguments for it, convincing women to do it and everything so it's just another idea I wish someone else would come up with.

I'd like them to do it forever. Which would only require a minor tweak and add major value to the effort involved.

The only advice women need to hear about rape is: get evidence.

 

[cesare]

I don't agree that "the only advice women need to hear about rape is: get evidence". If I had only one piece of advice for women on rape it would be: get even.

 

[smokedout]

But you know, thanks for reminding us that the police should never be contacted.

i didnt say that. I 100% support the right of the victim to make that decision, but i wouldnt always advocate going to the police over a nasty email, I havent gone to the police myself about a nasty email and far more serious crimes, because i fucking hate the cunts - so im not suggesting this is an action someone should take, but id hardly of mentioned it if i thought it was an action no-one should ever take

 

[Nylock]

She won't though. It'd be a way for her to further her own career so she carries more weight next time she accidentally calls me a middle-age man. And obviously as that happens, everyone will pile on and it'd be used to make completely wrong political messages and politicians will wriggle out of doing anything about it.

This is why we can't have nice things. Like a revolution.

I see what you did there ...

 

[SpineyNorman]

I don't agree that "the only advice women need to hear about rape is: get evidence". If I had only one piece of advice for women on rape it would be: get even.

 

[SpineyNorman]

I'm getting the impression that people might be talking at cross purposes here.

 

[muscovyduck]

If?

Seriously?

Did you read those links from earlier? Rapebook have no idea how their personal details got handed out, but they did. The moderator had to leave her home and the site was shut because no one else would risk it.

Your naivety is sweet, but entirely misplaced.

But you know, thanks for reminding us that the police should never be contacted. I've heard that somewhere before... Really shitty thing to say if you made the connection, If you didn't make the connection, well ... how? How could you miss it?

Come on now. That first bit was you having a problem with the semantics of a sentence. 'If' in this instance did not imply disbelief. It wasn't said that it's always definitely traceable. It was actual advice. Advice that will be found useful by a large majority of people. I've never realised emails could be traced in any way. I now intend on researching this.

The police cannot be trusted. Maybe you're lucky to have had a decent experience, but I've reported sexual assault to the police, I gave them the signature and postcode of the man, tons of other information and it definitely wasn't worth it. The evidence did jack shit. Going to the police just prolonged the experience.

Seriously, I understand how personal any general discussion on sexual assault is for women but misrepresenting arguments posts like that isn't the right thing to do.

I'd like them to do it forever. Which would only require a minor tweak and add major value to the effort involved.

The only advice women need to hear about rape is: get evidence.

A week is more manageable for women than forever. Therefore the campaign would be more likely to succeed. It's not a minor tweak.
As I implied above: If get evidence is your only advice then it's you who's naive.

 

[AKA pseudonym]

Oh she has been travelling again....

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed 5m
Just got back from Berlin. Landlords moved my key. Locked out on my front step. Phone dying. Bad night. #fuckthis #cold

I feel for her.. I would so tweet with a battery about to die.. it's essential...

 

[muscovyduck]

I see what you did there ...

Two or three conversations going on at the same time on the same thread.
That's a little bit intersectional.