Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[seventh bullet]

Definitely. If someone had told me and my workmates we were unskilled when I was working as a pipe fitter we'd have fed them their own teeth. To equate working class with unskilled is really fucking insulting.

True, and sadly us unskilled get looked down on by the skilled, as if we're outside of the working class. Seen it happen.

 

[ymu]

sorry to hear this ymu, that sucks doesn't really cover it.

I survived. But it's still happening and it is the men I grew up with who are still doing it to their daughters:

I once had a guy tell me I was gaining weight around my waist, proceeded to pinch my sides, and then comment about how he knew another girl my age who was half my size with twice as much tits. Thanks, dad.
(submitted by anonymous)

http://i-once-had-a-guy-tell-me.tum...i-once-had-a-guy-tell-me-i-was-gaining-weight

I'd like the men I grew up with to stop filling their sons' heads with the idea that women exist for their approval and their daughters' heads with the idea that these attitudes are to be tolerated. Whatever kinds of immature pricks they learnt from.

 

[ymu]

And if it is hard to work out how discriminatory -isms feed into the over-arching power relation that is class then . The SWP implosion should have made that fucking obvious to the most dedicated of theory-over-praxis types.

A black middle-class lesbian, on average, has more power than a white working-class straight man. But it is (slightly) more likely that she is middle-class by birth than a similarly class-privileged straight, white man. All else being equal at birth, skin colour, sex, sexuality and health all make it much more likely that you will be economically dominated by others rather than in a position to do the dominating. ie to end up in the working class.

The SWP and others like it are dominated by those who think it is enough that power is abused by different people (middle-class white men like themselves, mostly). That is what democratic centralism and vanguardism is all about. And why it cannot succeed, IMO.

 

[cesare]

True, and sadly us unskilled get looked down on by the skilled, as if we're outside of the working class. Seen it happen.

Happens a lot with trades eg butchers, bakers. RTB didn't help either, those that own "better than" those in social housing etc.

 

[ymu]

Divide and rule doesn't work if there is no one to spit on.

 

[Sue]

I said similar a few weeks ago. Turns out that there were a few people who just know what script to follow most of the time but have not spent much time at all thinking about it, let alone listening to what other people (usually women) have to say about it.

It's a bit like realising your dad is proud that you're in work and independent but still thinks you should be looking for a rich husband. Massive kick in the guts that won't go away.

Can you send on the bits of the script I'm missing? Thanks.

 

[ymu]

Can you send on the bits of the script I'm missing? Thanks.

You're not missing the script. You are missing the tools to analyse it. I can't help you there. You'll need to put some work into trying to understand what around a dozen people have been saying and then see if it changes your outlook at all. Repeating your mantra over and over again whilst not even trying to address their arguments doesn't work.

 

[J Ed]

Words tend to express attitudes which may lead to action, you say? How very thought-provoking.

You know, I wouldn't have thought so but to a lot of people this leap does seem to be quite revolutionary!

 

[Sue]

You're not missing the script. You are missing the tools to analyse it. I can't help you there. You'll need to put some work into trying to understand what around a dozen people have been saying and then see if it changes your outlook at all. Repeating your mantra over and over again whilst not even trying to address their arguments doesn't work.

I can't remember the last time I read something quite this patronising. If I question something that means I don't understand it? Really?

 

[ViolentPanda]

double post

 

[ViolentPanda]

Entrance to the Re Publica 13 Gathering for all 3 days (6 May - 8 May), 2 day Entrance is 140 Euro, 1 Day Entrance is 70 Euro.

https://twitter.com/republica/status/329613433798553600



I think criticism on these grounds would make more sense.

The gentrification certainly affects the Turkish and Arabic speaking people - when they are forced out - they are made to move to East Berlin...

If they're lucky. Even outliers and places that haven't formerly been given a second glance to, such as "new" Marzahn, are being gentrified/put out of the price range of w/c Berliners. Most of what was West Berlin, and the more central sections of what was East Berlin are already beyond ordinary affordability. My favourite bit of Berlin (Moabit - no fancy coffee shops, think Balham 30 years ago) has already seen rents almost double over the last 10 years.

 

[love detective]

And we all know how much women like to lie about being raped, right? It's so incredibly rare that most of them must be lying to make the stats look so horrific, right?

Fuck off. Just fuck off. You're part of the fucking problem. Put some fucking theory into praxis before the IWCA destroys itself just like the Assange cultists and then the swappies did.

Until then, just fuck off.

Unlike you, I've personally been on the receiving end of her lies - her accusations that I was both sexist & racist and peddling sexist & racist material

Others on this thread have had the same thing aimed at them individually, and in general the thread as a whole has been falsely accused by her of, and categorised as, sexist/misogynistic abuse

So in her catalogue/diary of sexist abuse that she receives every day - all the criticisms of her politics & method made on here are labelled by her as sexist & misogynistic abuse. We know this because she has told us this herself. This thread which has received over half a million views and has numerous posts a day on it and which by her own admission forms part of the ongoing online abuse that she receives each day is unfairly and disingenuously characterised by her as sexist/misogynistic abuse.

By and large most people on this thread dismiss her claims in relation to certain individuals here and the thread as a whole as rubbish and recognise her (either sub conscious or conscious) deflection of and response to a political critique of her/her methods/what she represents through claiming it is sexist & misogynistic abuse

So yes, I know she is lying about receiving sexist & misogynistic abuse from me personally and us individually on this thread. I have never denied that she receives actual sexist & misogynistic abuse from others nor that she was raped and to suggest I have done so (as the general theme of a number of posts above seems to suggest) is somewhat disingenuous. I have however questioned her claim as to the level & frequency of that abuse as I and everyone else on this thread knows that legitimate non-sexist/non-misogynistic criticisms that have been made of her and her politics here (and elsewhere) are categorised as sexist & misogynistic abuse by her. We know that it is not true. She is lying when she claims it is.

This attempt by others here to equate my specific dismissal of her claims of sexist/misogynistic abuse by us here on this thread with a general rejection of the a priori principle of at least initially believing the potential victim, is confused and wrong. I've seen and been on the receiving end of her lies about this personally so I make no excuses for not unconditionally accepting everything she says about this as true, as I and we know at least some of it is lies.

 

[love detective]

Happens a lot with trades eg butchers, bakers.

and candlestick makers

 

[cesare]

and candlestick makers

Casualty of industrialisation

 

[ViolentPanda]

I was thinking of the out-of-town Eastern Berlin suburbs places like Kopenick not Prenzlauer. I'm informed by people that those who live there feel more threatened than central or western Berlin - could be wrong.
Apparently, the Gulen movement - hidden but rightwing religious schooling movement - is quite strong in these new places, because it allows people to feel safe and off the streets.

Not suggesting that racist incidents don't happen in West Germany either. This only 2 evenings ago was a molotov attack on a foreign family operated corner kiosk in Huckelhoven, which is apparently only 8 miles from the border with Holland.

German http://www.aachener-zeitung.de/loka...ne-hinweise-auf-fremdenfeindlichkeit-1.571179

Turkish http://haber.mynet.com/turklere-irkci-saldiri-694590-dunya

Racism in what was East Berlin isn't anywhere near as bad as it was 20 years ago, although you do still get a lot of old-fartism from those who remember the DDR. In the former DDR proper, though, it's still a big issue - big enough that the federal police have kept open the "temporary" inspectorate they set up to deal with it in the mid-'90s.

 

[killer b]

Unlike you, I've personally been on the receiving end of her lies - her accusations that I was both sexist & racist and peddling sexist & racist material

Others on this thread have had the same thing aimed at them individually, and in general the thread as a whole has been falsely accused by her of, and categorised as, sexist/misogynistic abuse

So in her catalogue/diary of sexist abuse that she receives every day - all the criticisms of her politics & method made on here are labelled by her as sexist & misogynistic abuse. We know this because she has told us this herself. This thread which has received over half a million views and has numerous posts a day on it and which by her own admission forms part of the ongoing online abuse that she receives each day is unfairly and disingenuously characterised by her as sexist/misogynistic abuse.

By and large most people on this thread dismiss her claims in relation to certain individuals here and the thread as a whole as rubbish and recognise her (either sub conscious or conscious) deflection of and response to a political critique of her/her methods/what she represents through claiming it is sexist & misogynistic abuse

So yes, I know she is lying about receiving sexist & misogynistic abuse from me personally and us individually on this thread. I have never denied that she receives actual sexist & misogynistic abuse from others nor that she was raped and to suggest I have done so (as the general theme of a number of posts above seems to suggest) is somewhat disingenuous. I have however questioned her claim as to the level & frequency of that abuse as I and everyone else on this thread knows that legitimate non-sexist/non-misogynistic criticisms that have been made of her and her politics here (and elsewhere) are categorised as sexist & misogynistic abuse by her. We know that it is not true. She is lying when she claims it is.

This attempt by others here to equate my specific dismissal of her claims of sexist/misogynistic abuse by us here on this thread with a general rejection of the a priori principle of at least initially believing the potential victim, is confused and wrong. I've seen and been on the receiving end of her lies about this personally so I make no excuses for not unconditionally accepting everything she says about this as true, as I and we know at least some of it is lies.

actually, i see your point there. although tbf even this thread does regularly veer off into misogynistic abuse (or at least verging on it). it gets challenged, but it still happens, and more than i feel comfortable with.

 

[ViolentPanda]

wow... not even a discount for getting a ticket for all 3 days... that's a bit tight innit... =/

Then add a minimum of 70 Euro for 3 nights accommodation at a hostel, more for a hotel or B & B.

 

[ymu]

I can't remember the last time I read something quite this patronising. If I question something that means I don't understand it? Really?

When it's been explained sixteen different ways in the course of five pages, it does tend to indicate an unwillingness to comprehend. If you're saying that you do comprehend them but are nevertheless not willing to adapt your own argument in the light of new information, that's fine. But if you can't or won't explain why you reject those arguments, you don't get to ask people to keep on repeating them in new ways. Well, you do. But you don't get to have your laziness indulged.

 

[Steel Icarus]

Thank goodness. Here's an article about how the wor'in' clahsses don't need the middle-class to fight or speak for them. By Ellie-Mae O'Hagan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/09/working-class-dont-need-middle-class?CMP=twt_gu

 

[love detective]

actually, i see your point there. although tbf even this thread does regularly veer off into misogynistic abuse (or at least verging on it). it gets challenged, but it still happens, and more than i feel comfortable with.

I wouldn't say it regularly veers of into verging on misogynistic abuse - but on the occasions when it does happen it's fairly quickly arrested and those responsible pulled up on it. It self polices itself in that regard, which makes her blanket dismissal of the thread itself as ongoing sexist/misogynistic abuse of her even more disingenuous

 

[Idris2002]

Racism in what was East Berlin isn't anywhere near as bad as it was 20 years ago, although you do still get a lot of old-fartism from those who remember the DDR. In the former DDR proper, though, it's still a big issue - big enough that the federal police have kept open the "temporary" inspectorate they set up to deal with it in the mid-'90s.

Uh-huh. My current place of work has a lot of people from Africa and Asia, and we're apparently sited in this particular former DDR town because the peelers here are more likely to take hate crimes against non-whites seriously.

 

[butchersapron]

Thank goodness. Here's an article about how the wor'in' clahsses don't need the middle-class to fight or speak for them. By Ellie-Mae O'Hagan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/may/09/working-class-dont-need-middle-class?CMP=twt_gu

She should forget the Marxism stuff, she is just misusing terms.

What on earth does or could 'working class culture has certainly dwindled' ever mean?

 

[Steel Icarus]

She should forget the Marxism stuff, she is just misusing terms.

What on earth does or could working class culture has certainly dwindled ever mean?

It's not on telly so much/she doesn't have to see it herself any more (if she ever did)

 

[killer b]

I wouldn't say it regularly veers of into verging on misogynistic abuse - but on the occasions when it does happen it's fairly quickly arrested and those responsible pulled up on it. It self polices itself in that regard, which makes her blanket dismissal of the thread itself as ongoing sexist/misogynistic abuse of her even more disingenuous

well, yes - but it gets pulled up on guido, in youtube comments etc too. maybe not as immediately or robustly as here, but to exclude that abuse as invalid because it gets pulled up doesn't really follow imo.

 

[Sue]

When it's been explained sixteen different ways in the course of five pages, it does tend to indicate an unwillingness to comprehend. If you're saying that you do comprehend them but are nevertheless not willing to adapt your own argument in the light of new information, that's fine. But if you can't or won't explain why you reject those arguments, you don't get to ask people to keep on repeating them in new ways. Well, you do. But you don't get to have your laziness indulged.

Thought I'd explained myself reasonably well though must admit #19039 sums it up much more eloquently than I could (well maybe not sums it up as really don't have the time to type such comprehensive replies). Anyway, sometimes people have different opinions and experiences and you know what? Maybe they're just as valid as yours...

 

[smokedout]

other columnists have form for this, Philip Hensher claimed in his national newspaper column that he was getting death threats on twitter after his piece defending Atos, it was complete bollocks, he was getting rightly slagged out but no-one threatened him with violence

I know its different, but death threats are death threats, this is a trick journalists have pulled to shut down criticism before and its very effective. suzanne moore was accused by some people of the same thing.

 

[love detective]

well, yes - but it gets pulled up on guido, in youtube comments etc too. maybe not as immediately or robustly as here, but to exclude that abuse as invalid because it gets pulled up doesn't really follow imo.

yeah i agree, but i'm not making a case to exclude any sexist/misogynistic abuse that does happen as invalid. It does and has happened on this thread but to suggest, as she does and continues to do so, that this is representative of the thread in general (and that this is the threads very purpose or reason for existing) is perpetuating a huge untruth

 

[ymu]

...

This attempt by others here to equate my specific dismissal of her claims of sexist/misogynistic abuse by us here on this thread with a general rejection of the a priori principle of at least initially believing the potential victim, is confused and wrong. I've seen and been on the receiving end of her lies about this personally so I make no excuses for not unconditionally accepting everything she says about this as true, as I and we know at least some of it is lies.

Well boo fucking hoo. 80,000 women a year are raped in this country, 400,000 seriously sexually assaulted. Every fucking year. One in five women will be on the receiving end of at least one of those rapes and it is vanishingly unlikely that any of us will escape any serious assault at all.

And 93% are dismissed as liars.

So whatever personal wounds you are licking, don't endanger others by tapping into misogynist tropes. And don't assume she is over-reacting because you trumped her politically. I doubt she has the self-awareness to admit that. If you want to have a go at her you should think about also having a go at the nonces who are making the threats. They're not doing it to impress women, they're doing it to impress men. Try having a pop at them as well as at her and maybe she'll actually read what you want her to hear.

 

[DrRingDing]

other columnists have form for this, Philip Hensher claimed in his national newspaper column that he was getting death threats on twitter after his piece defending Atos, it was complete bollocks, he was getting rightly slagged out but no-one threatened him with violence

I know its different, but death threats are death threats, this is a trick journalists have pulled to shut down criticism before and its very effective. suzanne moore was accused by some people of the same thing.

Women who speak out do come under massive and appaling threats and comments online. My OH is a feminist vlogger and her and her comrades get overwhelmed by wankers giving them shit. It's pretty fucking depressing.

 

[love detective]

Well boo fucking hoo. 80,000 women a year are raped in this country, 400,000 seriously sexually assaulted. Every fucking year. One in five women will be on the receiving end of at least one of those rapes and it is vanishingly unlikely that any of us will escape any serious assault at all.

And 93% are dismissed as liars.

As I said above, why you and others keep talking about rape I've no idea. I've called her a liar on things I know for certain she is lying about. I know she is lying because I was directly involved in it. So who the fuck are you to tell me how I should respond to her lies about me (and others here)

If you want to have a go at her you should think about also having a go at the nonces who are making the threats. They're not doing it to impress women, they're doing it to impress men. Try having a pop at them as well as at her and maybe she'll actually read what you want her to hear.

Well I would, but apart from a small handful that she has publicly talked about and outed (who in turn received what they deserved in return) she doesn't seem to mention all the others that she gets daily. So not sure how you think it would be possible for me to have a go or have a pop at them as i've no idea who they are. The only other ones she has 'outed' that i'm aware of have been the collective authorship of this thread and as we've already established, this is a great big dirty lie