Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[ViolentPanda]

really? She seems remarkably unlucky as far as these bag/phone/iPad stealing incidents go

She should deed poll her first name to Jonah.

 

[ViolentPanda]

It seems there's two options then. Either we get really fucking good at privilege theory and intersectionalise the fuck out of identity politickers until they give up or we just abandon them as beyond redemption and go and talk to some normal people instead. I favour the latter approach

You missed option 3: Beat them violently and relentlessly while screaming "Santayana was right. Those who won't learn from history are condemned to repeat it, you identity-politicking sacks of shit".

 

[DrRingDing]

It seems there's two options then. Either we get really fucking good at privilege theory and intersectionalise the fuck out of identity politickers until they give up or we just abandon them as beyond redemption and go and talk to some normal people instead. I favour the latter approach

The sort of folk that stamp their feet about privilege are m/c teens and early 20s they mainly bang on about privilege in the main as to avoid the C word. Class.

Whereas the sort of folk that post on this thread are middle aged cantankerous blokes. I don't think you need to worry about formulating a plan about how to deal with them. You're unlikey to cross paths.

 

[SpineyNorman]

The sort of folk that stamp their feet about privilege are m/c teens and early 20s they mainly bang on about privilege in the main as to avoid the C word. Class.

Whereas the sort of folk that post on this thread are middle aged cantankerous blokes. I don't think you need to worry about formulating a plan about how to deal with them. You're unlikey to cross paths.

Who am I unlikely to cross paths with?

 

[butchersapron]

The sort of folk that stamp their feet about privilege are m/c teens and early 20s they mainly bang on about privilege in the main as to avoid the C word. Class.

Whereas the sort of folk that post on this thread are middle aged cantankerous blokes. I don't think you need to worry about formulating a plan about how to deal with them. You're unlikey to cross paths.

And you choo-choo-chose the first lot.

(ignoring the wildly inaccurate characterisation - and non-comparable [why not mention class for example?] of the posters here).

 

[DrRingDing]

Who am I unlikely to cross paths with?

Twinkling stroppy teenagers championing identity politics

 

[DrRingDing]

And you choo-choo-chose the first lot.

(ignoring the wildly inaccurate characterisation - and non-comparable [why not mention class for example?] of the posters here).

Are you saying you're not a cantankerous middle aged bloke?

 

[butchersapron]

Are you saying you're not a cantankerous middle aged bloke?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Twinkling stroppy teenagers championing identity politics

This is why it's not a good idea to make assumptions about people you don't know.

 

[el-ahrairah]

there is a bit of value in the ideas that led to identity politics and intersectionality that is important to be aware of, let's not forget that. just not the way that we are seeing it operate in the mainstream activist left at the moment (i.e. it is not a replacement for a class analysis, and not through playing the oppression olympics).

 

[butchersapron]

there is a bit of value in the ideas that led to identity politics and intersectionality that is important to be aware of, let's not forget that. just not the way that we are seeing it operate in the mainstream activist left at the moment (i.e. it is not a replacement for a class analysis, and not through playing the oppression olympics).

Damn right there is, which is - for me - why this theft of the ideas, is so annoying.

 

[Belushi]

Whereas the sort of folk that post on this thread are middle aged cantankerous blokes.

frogwoman

 

[butchersapron]

frogwoman

cesare, weepiper, equationgirl,red cat, dotcommunist, tufty79, kittyp, muscovyduck - ffs, 10 seconds thought (and even more as i'm typing).

 

[SpineyNorman]

This might have been posted a bit back but it's relevant to the occupy derail - Laurie Penny on the human centipede gramophone (and a hilarious title that shows she has no self-awareness whatsoever - I genuinely had to double check that it wasn't a PD pisstake!):

The return of the Radical Chic evening

Penn Badgley, an actor on the hit series “Gossip Girl,” has a face too mathematically perfect to be truly interesting, but at this celebrity consciousness-raising gig for Occupy Wall Street, he looks genuinely excited. He bounds onto the stage, grabs the microphone and yells “mic check!” Invited guests from the Occupy movement wince at this earnest misunderstanding of the people’s mic and its reworking of the relationship between society and spectacle in an age where politics takes place mostly on television.
In the early days of Zuccotti Park, the people’s mic was developed as a solution to the police ban on electric amplification. The order ended up being a gift to the movement, as voices were carried by chanting a speaker’s words back to them — which kept remarks pithy and aware of the audience.

This is my favourite part:

'Invited guests from the Occupy movement wince at this earnest misunderstanding of the people’s mic and its reworking of the relationship between society and spectacle in an age where politics takes place mostly on television.'

This Laurie Penny shitness distilled to its pure form. Could it be any more obvious that she's using their 'wince' (which probably didn't happen) as a means of shoehorning in her personal views? How does she know that's what they were wincing at? They might have had haemorhoids or something.

But anyway - apprently it reworks the relationship between society and spectacle in an age where politics takes place mostly on television. So there

I think she's saying it removes all privilege and hierarchy. Like twitter.

 

[rekil]

PD's revolutionary software dev team could bang out a 'progressive stack app' in no time - and 'make a fortune' as gonch from grange hill would say.

 

[SpineyNorman]

What is the age range for middle aged anyway?

 

[butchersapron]

So, was there a mic or not Was it turned off? if so, whaty was it there? If so, it's a fund-raising gig, whywas it turned off? Who invited who?

 

[el-ahrairah]

frogwoman

our token young woman see, we are insclusive!

 

[butchersapron]

What is the age range for middle aged anyway?

Note age is classless in ralph's cartoon world, one in which he is the defender of:

m/c teens and early 20s they mainly bang on about privilege in the main as to avoid the C word. Class.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed 3m
Spending time in America makes me a better writer, unquestionably. Their literary and journalistic culture is so much healthier right now.

Which raises a troubling question - how bad would she be if she hadn't spent time in America? It's a horrifying thought

 

[SpineyNorman]

Note age is classless in ralph's cartoon world, one in which he is the defender of:

Also middle aged men (apparently I'm one of those) never encounter these classless stroppy teens. Even if they're mature students.

 

[el-ahrairah]

the mic check thing can be quite useful in an action - it's way more effective than a single loudspeaker, and can be used to allow a small amount of people to pass on vocal information across a large area. it is a tool of information delivery, not a fucking caste-mark of rebel cool.

 

[butchersapron]

Also middle aged men (apparently I'm one of those) never encounter these classless stroppy teens. Even if they're mature students.

And they never work hard to ensure their political activity includes stroppy teens (another pish characterisation).

 

[SpineyNorman]

the mic check thing can be quite useful in an action - it's way more effective than a single loudspeaker, and can be used to allow a small amount of people to pass on vocal information across a large area. it is a tool of information delivery, not a fucking caste-mark of rebel cool.

So it doesn't rework the relationship between society and spectacle in an age where politics takes place mostly on television? Gutted

 

[SpineyNorman]

And they never work hard to ensure their political activity includes stroppy teens (another pish characterisation).

The bastards

 

[butchersapron]

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed 3m
Spending time in America makes me a better writer, unquestionably. Their literary and journalistic culture is so much healthier right now.

Which raises a troubling question - how bad would she be if she hadn't spent time in America? It's a horrifying thought

Or how much better if she hadn't.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Or how much better if she hadn't.

Or how much better the journalistic culture in the UK would be if she fucked off to the US and didn't come back

 

[Nigel Irritable]

Now we have to play self-oppression olympics whose is worse? Because these East Coast student anarchists offer all this:




What are the costs of a privilege? How can such a thing exist? A privilege by definition is a plus, a gain, it can't be a minus.




We are vulnerable - start from here - start from where we are weak and unsure and pour more salt - that will help immigrants. Asylum seekers will feel welcome as soon as the poster goes up.




If people speak only for themselves as a group is a black male only anarchist space possible - after all they're just speaking for themselves?



Take risks to address racism? What risk? How much risk? Dangerous martyr complex invitation.


On the one hand it says:



but then



assuming the person is the problem



Will you ever give the benefit of the doubt to people opposed to progressive stacks?



Help the classists say sorry? How? What can we do? 'Please neo-Monbiotist deep greens say sorry for that vile 1999 article where you celebrated the closure of Rover plants - it will make you feel better '.



I find 90% of anti-oppression promises macho-bravado. We look forward to working-class members challenging it amongst friends minority middle-class macho 'we are the heirs of Fanon' bravado anti-white privilege groups?







Discomfort and pain - why? you're working for anti-capitalism, why should you feel personal discomfort and pain for things created by wider power structures?




Equal what? Equal dumb?



So it's everyone's role or not? Does the facilitator have some special power or status? Don't answer that one.



What if the point you are making features several important, relevant, new examples ie is long? What sort of human says 'I want to monopolize conversation so people will think I'm windbag and avoid me' that you spell this out?



No classism? No educationalism? Who stole the spokes!



So it's OK to sit silently through other people's classism - that's the way to not get called out.



Don't take up space, don't slouch or relax after a long day.



Balance for what? Balance why?



So non speaker pale skin comes after non speaker dark skin.



You will sound like Teletubbies.



Is giving an avalanche of tips on How to Make Friends of Leftists and Influence Radicals respectful communication?



And now we say 3 El-Fatihas or the Lord's Prayer.

This is my favourite part of the whole thread. Has anyone ever met one of these Anarchist Student Federation clowns in real life?

 

[SpineyNorman]

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed 8m
In New York, at least, it seems easier to be a young woman trying to do ambitious creative things without being torn apart and laughed at.

Translation: it's easier to get away with writing shite without being torn apart and laughed at. She still thinks it's all about her being a young woman (and I know it is for some people but she uses that to smear us all).

It's not because you're a young woman Laurie. It's because you're shit.

 

[DotCommunist]

Their literary and journalistic culture is so much healthier right now.