Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Casually Red]

occupy the factories you cunts

 

[weepiper]

Has anyone pointed out that the Occupy hand signal for 'point of order' looks awfully like the BSL sign for 'cunt' yet? Appropriate really.

 

[DotCommunist]

I thought it had great potential to start with, shame it went this way.

 

[frogwoman]

I thought it had great potential to start with, shame it went this way.

i think in parts of the USA it did, things like the longshoremen#s strike etc where they actually offered some solidarity.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Has anyone pointed out that the Occupy hand signal for 'point of order' looks awfully like the BSL sign for 'cunt' yet? Appropriate really.

Had no idea TBH

 

[equationgirl]

Have you asked him how he knows this?

And what's a Sabb, btw?

It's short for Sabbatical, because the full-time elected positions are a) salaried and b) full-time+ meaning the office bearer must take time out from their course in order to perform their duties.

 

[equationgirl]

It must be really difficult to decide who has more privilege just by scanning faces in a big meeting

That's where this comes in handy:

Courtesy of Proletarian Democracy. Winner gets to speak first

 

[sihhi]

heres some jewish occupy activists "pledging to hold themselves accountable for the occupation of palestine".

Now we have to play self-oppression olympics whose is worse? Because these East Coast student anarchists offer all this:

Each person who enjoys privileges granted by systems of prejudicial power (no matter how radical or revolutionary) must recognize the benefits and costs of their privileges. We must take responsibility for our prejudices and actions which perpetuate oppression.

What are the costs of a privilege? How can such a thing exist? A privilege by definition is a plus, a gain, it can't be a minus.

We acknowledge that developing anti-oppression practices is a life-long work and requires a life-long commitment. No single workshop is sufficient for learning to change one’s behaviors. We are all vulnerable to being oppressive and we need to continuously struggle with these issues and behaviors.

We are vulnerable - start from here - start from where we are weak and unsure and pour more salt - that will help immigrants. Asylum seekers will feel welcome as soon as the poster goes up.

We speak only for ourselves, and commit to hearing each other and creating opportunities for all voices to be heard, especially for those that have been historically marginalized or silenced, and for those that continue to be oppressed.

If people speak only for themselves as a group is a black male only anarchist space possible - after all they're just speaking for themselves?

I challenge myself to be honest and open and take risks to address racism, sexism, homophobia, transphobia, and all other forms of oppression and hate head on.

Take risks to address racism? What risk? How much risk? Dangerous martyr complex invitation.


On the one hand it says:

I will challenge the behavior not the person. I will be sensitive and promote open dialogue.

but then

I won’t feel guilty, but rather I will feel responsible. Being part of the problem doesn’t mean I can’t be an active part of the solution.

assuming the person is the problem

I recognize when someone offers criticism around oppressive behavior. I will treat it as a gift rather than challenging the person or invalidating their experience. I shall give people the benefit of the doubt and won’t make assumptions.

Will you ever give the benefit of the doubt to people opposed to progressive stacks?

I will acknowledge that the intent of an action may not have been malicious but the impact could have been. I will try not to write off people who make mistakes because I don’t want to be associated with them. I will help them admit what they did and take responsibility for making reparations for their behaviour.

Help the classists say sorry? How? What can we do? 'Please neo-Monbiotist deep greens say sorry for that vile 1999 article where you celebrated the closure of Rover plants - it will make you feel better '.

I will be mindful of how I project myself and my views and how I use body language and tone to assert power and control even without meaning to. I will challenge “macho-bravado” in myself, my friends and in my activism.

I find 90% of anti-oppression promises macho-bravado. We look forward to working-class members challenging it amongst friends minority middle-class macho 'we are the heirs of Fanon' bravado anti-white privilege groups?

I will respect the community, its space, and the decisions it makes.

I understand that I will feel discomfort and pain as I face my part in oppression. I realize that this is a necessary part of the process of liberation and growth.

Discomfort and pain - why? you're working for anti-capitalism, why should you feel personal discomfort and pain for things created by wider power structures?

I will maintain these practices and contribute equal time and energy to building healthy relationships, both personal and political.

Equal what? Equal dumb?

It is the role of the facilitator to ensure that the space is safe and welcoming for everyone. It is also the responsibility of each participant to contribute to this.

So it's everyone's role or not? Does the facilitator have some special power or status? Don't answer that one.

Participants commit to active listening by not not monopolizing conversations.

What if the point you are making features several important, relevant, new examples ie is long? What sort of human says 'I want to monopolize conversation so people will think I'm windbag and avoid me' that you spell this out?

Participants will be conscious of how their use of language may perpetuate racism, sexism, homophobia, ageism, and other oppression and hatred, either in person or online.

No classism? No educationalism? Who stole the spokes!

Participants will not call people out who have not spoken.

So it's OK to sit silently through other people's classism - that's the way to not get called out.

Participants will be conscious of how much space they take up and how much they speak in a group. They will practice “stepping up, stepping back” so they can each contribute to equal participation.

Don't take up space, don't slouch or relax after a long day.

Participants commit to creating a safe space that balances race, gender and age participation.

Balance for what? Balance why?

People who haven’t yet spoken will get priority through the system of progressive stack.

So non speaker pale skin comes after non speaker dark skin.

Participants are encouraged to use the word “ouch” to draw attention to what they find oppressive. Likewise they are encouraged to use the word “oops” to acknowledge when they may have done something oppressive.

You will sound like Teletubbies.

we need to learn how to listen non-defensively and communicate respectfully if we are going to have effective anti-oppression practice.

Is giving an avalanche of tips on How to Make Friends of Leftists and Influence Radicals respectful communication?

Five minutes at the end of each meeting will be reserved for reflection on group dynamics during the meeting.

And now we say 3 El-Fatihas or the Lord's Prayer.

 

[Delroy Booth]

I thought it had great potential to start with, shame it went this way.

You'd think the way occupy died under the weight of it's own weird micro-politics would lead some of them who made a name off it to question those methods of organising, but not that I've seen. The reaction to it in the US, in spite of some very partisan news coverage, was quite positive at first I recall. It looked like a little spontaneous outburst of class consciousness, strained through all sorts of hippy-ish counter cultural american tendencies true, but still it seemed to strike a bit of a chord. It's hardly surprising seeing as we'd just been through a massive sharp recession these things resonate I suppose. I think it was timed well and had a decent momentum for a bit.

In the UK it looked different from the start. Didn't Julian Assange turn up in a V for Vendetta mask, throwing sweets into the air? And another thing I noticed, they used to do that "people's mic" thing in London like they did in the US, even though they weren't being prevented from using loudspeakers and so on ( or rather they weren't being prevented at that particular time ) and I saw it in the regional satellites i visited - people struggling to conform to these hand gestures, and it taking up loads of time in discussions, it was totally awkward and stupid.

And it's not led to anything, has it? What was it Zizek said in his sermon on the mount at occupy? "There is a danger. Don’t fall in love with yourselves. We have a nice time here. But remember, carnivals come cheap. What matters is the day after, when we will have to return to normal lives. Will there be any changes then?" I reckon occupy failed totally by this measure.

 

[chilango]

I'd say occupy failed by pretty much any measure tbh.

 

[DotCommunist]

wherewas it where they got the real beating of old bill, tear gassed constantly etc? okland occupy. I recall there was one occupy site that was given a real rough time of it...

 

[muscovyduck]

Occupy inspired me to get more involved in politics but once I met someone who said he donated a large amount of money to Occupy I was glad it wasn't them I got involved with. Really passive aggressive and he wasn't a good advert for them at all.

 

[sihhi]

wherewas it where they got the real beating of old bill, tear gassed constantly etc? okland occupy. I recall there was one occupy site that was given a real rough time of it...

U-Cal Davis campus

Then

 

[weepiper]

The only experience i have of Occupy is the Edinburgh one where they camped out in a couple of places in the city centre for a while and everyone in the city basically ignored them and/or grumbled about them and nothing of note really seemed to happen, and the Glasgow one where a woman got raped and they made a big mess of how they handled it because they seemed essentially wafty and inneffectual. Neither of them makes me want to get involved or see it as a movement with anything constructive to offer me.

 

[DrRingDing]

Your skilled facilitators and cadre of skilled meeting goers are only "horizontal" for those already in the know. A chair who is elected by the meeting and who can be dismissed and replaced by the meeting is just as "horizontal", even if you are allergic to the term and think it's "trot" like.

A chair elected the meeting? IME when people come together for a meeting when someone goes pipes up "who wants to facilitate" there's an eery silence while people look at their shoes until someone volunteers.

 

[muscovyduck]

There was some good stuff that came out of it, and it has improved individual lives considerably, but it was a mess

 

[DrRingDing]

how exactly

without an executive theres neither co ordination, planning or accountability, no one to represent the base as delegates
without a chair theres chaos
without a constitution theres no parameters for the chair or executive to adhere to , and the base are completely fucked

IT'S 2013!

 

[DrRingDing]

Graeber descibes the use of the "Human/Peoples microphone" method in his latest book, 'The Democracy Project'. Although the technique had been in use for some time in US protest movements, he claimed that the need arose, early in the OWS movement, when the (conventionally amplified) platform at the first scheduled assembly was 'hi-jacked' by the leninist Workers World Party. Hence the 'horizontals' gathered at some distance away from the 'Verticals' and used the repeated phrasing method to ensure that folk could be heard above the electrified din of the leninists.

I have to say that the first time I went to St. Pauls and encountered the OLS GA shenanigans I thought for a while I'd stumbled across some wierd cultish group of chritos what with all the signing and mantra-like repeating.

Also, just to throw this into the mix, a close family member has this year been denied the right to speak at an occupation because they were sat on a chair at the periphery of the assembly. "We're all on the floor, if you want to speak get off that chair!" Now that's privilege, eh?

It's was used in Occupy Wall Street as megaphones were banned.

I do not have anything to do with Occupy no do I have any particular interest in them.

 

[DrRingDing]

heres some jewish occupy activists "pledging to hold themselves accountable for the occupation of palestine". god that fucked me off. presumably anyone who doesn't hold themselves to such a thing or points out the role of capital and class in maintaining the occupation is just not feeling guilty enough, perhaps they should flaggelate themselves until they've disabled themselves and then they can come first in the meeting.

just fucked politics on so many levels.

is it me or has occupy come to embody the very worst aspects of left wing (or pseudo left) politics of every kind? jesus wept

It's just a nutter magnet.

 

[DotCommunist]

U-Cal Davis campus

Then

Just the photos I was thinking off. Fucking disgraceful behaviour. Still, they do have a rep over there. Four dead in ohio etc.

 

[emanymton]

Could some one please explain where I would fit in this progressive stacking thing, as a heterosexual white male but with a learning disability (OK so it just means I can't spell for toffee, but it still counts) where exactly would I come in the speaking order? Obviously we know being from a pretty poor working class background doesn't mean anything, but I must get some oppression points for having dyslexia? Obviously I would come after the people of colour and all the women. But what about someone who had just been on holiday to Spain and had a really good tan? Or someone with aspergers syndrome? Or another while male who was a Muslim?

I am also a little concerned that no one would know I had a disability by looking at me, should I have a sign saying something to the effect of 'I have a none visible disability which means I get to speak before you, so there!' Obviously I would need to attach it to my back somehow to keep both hands free for waving around at the appropriate points. What do people missing one of both hands do I wonder?

 

[DrRingDing]

Could some one please explain where I would fit in this progressive stacking thing, as a heterosexual white male but with a learning disability (OK so it just means I can't spell for toffee, but it still counts) where exactly would I come in the speaking order? Obviously we know being from a pretty poor working class background doesn't mean anything, but I must get some oppression points for having dyslexia? Obviously I would come after the people of colour and all the women. But what about someone who had just been on holiday to Spain and had a really good tan? Or someone with aspergers syndrome? Or another while male who was a Muslim?

I am also a little concerned that no one would know I had a disability by looking at me, should I have a sign saying something to the effect of 'I have a none visible disability which means I get to speak before you, so there!' Obviously I would need to attach it to my back somehow to keep both hands free for waving around at the appropriate points. What do people missing one of both hands do I wonder?

Get one of these it should get you some effnic minority points.

 

[sihhi]

Just the photos I was thinking off. Fucking disgraceful behaviour. Still, they do have a rep over there. Four dead in ohio etc.

That was like 2 weeks after a Bay Area shut down when a major foreclosure (kick people out of homes) bank Chase Manhattan was attacked. It led to these notes placed all around the property damage:

So the police went in harder.

 

[rosecore]

At least Laurie has gone from Game of Thrones being "racist rape-culture Disneyland with dragons" to enjoying it judging by her recent tweet.

 

[J Ed]

At my uni there is a bizarre identity politics war going on over a proposal to create another permanent salaried position for a black students officer, with proponents of the proposal accusing anyone who asks questions about the proposal of racism. Oddly, most of the people who are opposing have displayed very similar behaviour towards those who were against any of their proposals (gender quotas for elections, for example). It's almost like a microcosm of the Helen Lewis nonsense.

Very nasty, lots of grandstanding about who is more oppressed and personal attacks.

Funny how the claws only come out on issues like this, when things like a living wage for workers at the university are discussed there is very little interest in spending a fraction of the time and passion on that.

 

[DrRingDing]

At my uni there is a bizarre identity politics war going on over a proposal to create another permanent salaried position for a black students officer, with proponents of the proposal accusing anyone who asks questions about the proposal of racism. Oddly, most of the people who are opposing have displayed very similar behaviour towards those who were against any of their proposals (gender quotas for elections, for example). It's almost like a microcosm of the Helen Lewis nonsense.

Very nasty, lots of grandstanding about who is more oppressed and personal attacks.

Funny how the claws only come out on issues like this, when things like a living wage for workers at the university are discussed there is very little interest in spending a fraction of the time and passion on that.

What uni is this? Red brick?

 

[J Ed]

What uni is this? Red brick?

Sheffield

 

[JimW]

Maybe the "we are better than this" was complaining at the failure to do more than crack a couple of windows?

 

[DrRingDing]

Sheffield

I hear that used to be a good crack.

Fuck off student politics and go find some local anarchos is my advice.

 

[frogwoman]

another career NUS politician, great.