Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[cesare]

Rascist

edit: the Swedes will have long tacitly decided something they're just hanging around waiting for you to get the message, and are too scared of conflict to point this out

Yes

Conflict and Lagom don't mix

 

[Casually Red]

Yeah the American ones had to get permission first from the state (or whatever authority) to use microphones, loudspeakers etc, didn't they?

or to be more correct they took the view they required the states sanction on their use of loudspeakers

 

[DrRingDing]

would you prefer undesirables

I'd prefer not to have an "executive tier".

 

[Random]

Yes

Conflict and Lagom don't mix

Did you hear there was a (rare) strike today across Sweden? It lasted for 50 minutes, then a deal was signed in which the companies promised to "consult with2 the union over agency staff

 

[Random]

I'd prefer not to have an "executive tier".

The executive doesn't need an executive tier

 

[Treacle Toes]

or to be more correct they took the view they required the states sanction on their use of loudspeakers

Pretty sure it was from experience of having megaphones and other amplification equipment confiscated and/or addressing the need for all to hear at spontaneous less formally arranged meetings. Let's face it, a megaphone and/or a mobile mic/speaker system is not something we all have in the cupboard is it?

 

[Casually Red]

I'd prefer not to have an "executive tier".

delegates chosen from the bottom up to represent the base and a chair,acting with strict adherence to a constitution, whats wrong with it

 

[DrRingDing]

delegates chosen from the bottom up to represent the base and a chair,acting with strict adherence to a constitution, whats wrong with it

Sounds like bourgeois parlimentarianism comrade.

 

[BigTom]

Less Meetings.

More chats.

Less Boring Meetings - More Tory Beatings!

 

[Casually Red]

Sounds like bourgeois parlimentarianism comrade.

how exactly

without an executive theres neither co ordination, planning or accountability, no one to represent the base as delegates
without a chair theres chaos
without a constitution theres no parameters for the chair or executive to adhere to , and the base are completely fucked

 

[Nigel Irritable]

I'm not being offensive but are you a trot?

A question any Anarchist who shows too much sign of having some basic fucking sense can expect to be asked from time to time.

 

[Casually Red]

Rather large potential for mis-interpreting leftists as oppositional, I'd say?

Don't you

?

and if a bunch of nazis walked in theyd just assume they all wanted to say something very important

 

[DotCommunist]

'Clarify' could easily double as 'CLAW' or 'CRAB'

 

[brogdale]

That was banned. That's why they engaged in this Tomfoolery.

Graeber descibes the use of the "Human/Peoples microphone" method in his latest book, 'The Democracy Project'. Although the technique had been in use for some time in US protest movements, he claimed that the need arose, early in the OWS movement, when the (conventionally amplified) platform at the first scheduled assembly was 'hi-jacked' by the leninist Workers World Party. Hence the 'horizontals' gathered at some distance away from the 'Verticals' and used the repeated phrasing method to ensure that folk could be heard above the electrified din of the leninists.

I have to say that the first time I went to St. Pauls and encountered the OLS GA shenanigans I thought for a while I'd stumbled across some wierd cultish group of chritos what with all the signing and mantra-like repeating.

Also, just to throw this into the mix, a close family member has this year been denied the right to speak at an occupation because they were sat on a chair at the periphery of the assembly. "We're all on the floor, if you want to speak get off that chair!" Now that's privilege, eh?

 

[frogwoman]

just another thing about this victims stuff and how people should have the first say if they're more oppressed.

i am not a victim, i am a very strong and intelligent woman. I dont always feel this way about myself all the time and life is often a struggle for me. not as much as it is for other people but it often is for me, i often get feelings of suicidal thoughts etc. When people say stuff to me like "oh that must be so hard for you" about something in some kind of pitying manner and i'm thinking well no it isn't, because i've got used to it or i've never known anything else. i'm not saying stuff shouldnt be changed but like there's a danger with this oppression stuff of making it really patronising, like patting them on the head and being like "oh poor you, you have such a shit life so you can go first in this meeting because we want to be nice to you." But of course not listening to what they say anyway. Not giving them the chance to develop their confidence but treating them like zoo animals to be protected - but their life conditions not changed obviously - (which is what i've talked about on this thread before) and giving them special treatment almost out of pity.

well i think i can speak for most people when i say that i dont want to be pitied because of what oppression i've had in my life i want to be respected and that means that it should be on the basis of what i've said rather than what i look like.

 

[frogwoman]

Graeber descibes the use of the "Human/Peoples microphone" method in his latest book, 'The Democracy Project'. Although the technique had been in use for some time in US protest movements, he claimed that the need arose, early in the OWS movement, when the (conventionally amplified) platform at the first scheduled assembly was 'hi-jacked' by the leninist Workers World Party. Hence the 'horizontals' gathered at some distance away from the 'Verticals' and used the repeated phrasing method to ensure that folk could be heard above the electrified din of the leninists.

I have to say that the first time I went to St. Pauls and encountered the OLS GA shenanigans I thought for a while I'd stumbled across some wierd cultish group of chritos what with all the signing and mantra-like repeating.

Also, just to throw this into the mix, a close family member has this year been denied the right to speak at an occupation because they were sat on a chair at the periphery of the assembly. "We're all on the floor, if you want to speak get off that chair!" Now that's privilege, eh?

check your chair privilege.

 

[Casually Red]

just another thing about this victims stuff and how people should have the first say if they're more oppressed.

i am not a victim, i am a very strong and intelligent woman. I dont always feel this way about myself all the time and life is often a struggle for me. not as much as it is for other people but it often is for me, i often get feelings of suicidal thoughts etc. When people say stuff to me like "oh that must be so hard for you" about something in some kind of pitying manner and i'm thinking well no it isn't, because i've got used to it or i've never known anything else. i'm not saying stuff shouldnt be changed but like there's a danger with this oppression stuff of making it really patronising, like patting them on the head and being like "oh poor you, you have such a shit life so you can go first in this meeting because we want to be nice to you." But of course not listening to what they say anyway. Not giving them the chance to develop their confidence but treating them like zoo animals to be protected - but their life conditions not changed obviously - (which is what i've talked about on this thread before) and giving them special treatment almost out of pity.

well i think i can speak for most people when i say that i dont want to be pitied because of what oppression i've had in my life i want to be respected and that means that it should be on the basis of what i've said rather than what i look like.

its absolutely patronising . Brownie points belong for people who are actually in the Brownies . And even they have to actually do something to be awarded them .

 

[butchersapron]

The Wise brothers once described western maoism as the class consciousness of guilt, think there's something similar going on here, this is sort of the liberal-individual form of it in a period where the old-labour movements socialising role no longer exists.

 

[frogwoman]

heres some jewish occupy activists "pledging to hold themselves accountable for the occupation of palestine". god that fucked me off. presumably anyone who doesn't hold themselves to such a thing or points out the role of capital and class in maintaining the occupation is just not feeling guilty enough, perhaps they should flaggelate themselves until they've disabled themselves and then they can come first in the meeting.

just fucked politics on so many levels.

is it me or has occupy come to embody the very worst aspects of left wing (or pseudo left) politics of every kind? jesus wept

 

[Nigel Irritable]

heres some jewish occupy activists "pledging to hold themselves accountable for the occupation of palestine".

That is just fucked up in so many ways that I can't begin to imagine why anyone thought it was a good idea.

 

[frogwoman]

That is just fucked up in so many ways that I can't begin to imagine why anyone thought it was a good idea.

Yeah it's an absolute fucking disgrace.

 

[Treacle Toes]

Yeah it's an absolute fucking disgrace.

That is erm...no words really.

The conscientious objector stuff I appreciate/understand but this...erm, well...what?

 

[frogwoman]

The conscientious objector stuff I appreciate/understand but this...erm, well...what?

i know, that was my reaction.

 

[sihhi]

The Wise brothers once described western maoism as the class consciousness of guilt, think there's something similar going on here, this is sort of the liberal-individual form of it in a period where the old-labour movements socialising role no longer exists.

Look at this - it's Jodi Dean, studied Princeton, tenured as Political Science Professor in 1993 at NYU
author of The Communist Horizon and Zizek's Politics.

B&C: You said that Occupy enabled the Left to say ‘we’ again. But isn’t one of the big achievements of the historical Left that it was always wary of saying ‘we’ because it was aware of the exclusions resulting from such a ‘we’? Is this awareness incorporated into the movement and what are mechanisms expressing it? How can we reflect on these more problematic aspects of the ‘we’?

JD: First, there is a very concrete procedure for dealing with the potential problems of an exclusive ‘we’ that is called the ‘progressive stack’. If people want to speak in a general assembly they get ‘on stack’. The progressive stack makes sure that people who have not spoken and/​or are from historically disadvantaged or marginalized groups are moved up in the stack. That makes it impossible for privileged people to take up all the speaking time. Most working groups also adopted this mechanism. Secondly, there were multiple groups that were focused on women in the movement, racial differences, problems and issues for the undocumented etc. So there were particular caucuses and working groups on these very topics. So there was always self-​consciousness in the movement. The assumption that everybody just forgot fifty years of difference theory is ludicrous.

Concrete meeting procedure - for small meetings (working grps) aswell as large (assemblies) -overpowers the exclusive middle-class 'we'. It almost seems to say as long as "privileged groups" do not take up all the time that's OK problem sorted.

 

[Casually Red]

 

[Casually Red]

just fucked politics on so many levels.

is it me or has occupy come to embody the very worst aspects of left wing (or pseudo left) politics of every kind? jesus wept

yeah, whatever it was, is or could have been its a complete load of bollocks now . I wouldnt touch it with a shitty stick .

 

[Delroy Booth]

heres some jewish occupy activists "pledging to hold themselves accountable for the occupation of palestine".

That's grotesque.

is it me or has occupy come to embody the very worst aspects of left wing (or pseudo left) politics of every kind? jesus wept

Yeah it's a fucking car crash. Pathetic. They lack the mettle of the old Chartists

 

[J Ed]

What should we make of this bizarre self-hate? Is it an inversion of a prejudiced upbringing?

 

[Casually Red]

What should we make of this bizarre self-hate? Is it an inversion of a prejudiced upbringing?

its a massive ego trip. Its a bunch of wankers who honestly believe the world revolves around them . They themselves and their guilt, issues and insecurities are central to every fucking single thing on earth. They cant just go on a quiet guilt trip in the corner..no...they have to take their trip on a big shiny fucking train, make us all buy a ticket while they wear the conductors hat and blow the bastard whistle non stop. But its ok because some black people and some gays get the nicer seats .

Absolute fucking narcissism .

edit

from spoiled pampered bastards told from day one by their hippy bastard parents they were the most special and clever little child on earth . And they still believe it .

 

[frogwoman]

That's grotesque.



Yeah it's a fucking car crash. Pathetic. They lack the mettle of the old Chartists

http://972mag.com/over-1000-jews-gather-at-wall-st-for-occupyyomkippur-kol-nidre/24808/ heres a better link btw

i've seen this bollocks used on a few websites to justify not challenging anti-semitic shit, because jewish people in the west are largely more privileged because of being white and that and anyway you should be holding yourself accountable

it's pathetic.

seriously, most of the people at this shit are more privileged anyway because they have the spare time and money to camp out in new york for days without working. does that type of privilege not come into it then?