Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Delroy Booth]

Most of them didn't and don't do critical theory (and none of this stuff is to do with critical theory, which would be contemptuous of this stuff despite exhibiting the same sort of everyone else is the problem attitude) or even know what it is - they do english or history.

Just a quick note, I'm aware of that, that was my experience of it at uni too. I just like taking the piss out of Critical Theory people. Like the lad on Twitter I told him to fuck off and get a neon big sign with ADORNO to put over his head for when he's out and about, just so everyone knows he's been to uni and read dead clever books with long words in it.

 

[butchersapron]

It will be a lot worse at alienating ordinary people than even the most tautological and obtuse Trot bullshit, I don't know anyone outside of a tiny minority of students I knew at uni who are into this stuff, and I can't see it getting any traction. If anything it might fuck up anti-racist and anti-sexist struggles that takes place, and drive people into the arms of the far-right, who use language anyone can relate to and promote a much less esoteric brand of identity politics that relies on well-established tropes that are implicitly understood in our political culture, not constructing new ones with you and your 6 mates.

Why would it alienate 'ordinary people' more than trot bullshit? They're both seen as pointy-headed irrelevances - if ever mentioned.

 

[sihhi]

Most of them didn't and don't do critical theory (and none of this stuff is to do with critical theory, which would be contemptuous of this stuff despite exhibiting the same sort of everyone else is the problem attitude) or even know what it is - they do english or history.

This stuff - intersectionality or kyriarchy - isn't at all part of any history syllabuses.

 

[sihhi]

Why would it alienate 'ordinary people' more than trot bullshit? They're both seen as pointy-headed irrelevances - if ever mentioned.

It wouldn't.

But the importation from America is interesting and it suggests outright cross-class alliances might be made in the future once the recession deepens.

 

[Delroy Booth]

Why would it alienate 'ordinary people' more than trot bullshit? They're both seen as pointy-headed irrelevances - if ever mentioned.

If not more, than at least on a par with, the worst bits of Trotskyite wankery. Personally when trying to put these idea's to people I know and am friends with, the privilige theory stuff is just laughed at as pretentious crap, whereas Trot stuff is seen as nerdy and a bit pathetic, not to mention quite old fashioned sounding. I think it's probably understood by people easier though.

 

[Athos]

This stuff - intersectionality or kyriarchy - isn't at all part of any history syllabuses.

Which is possibly why its so poorly thought through.

 

[butchersapron]

This stuff - intersectionality or kyriarchy - isn't at all part of any history syllabuses.

I wasn't suggesting that it was - or part of any syllabus at all. I was saying that this is what these type of people seem to have studied at their elite/private liberal arts colleges.

 

[Athos]

Why would it alienate 'ordinary people' more than trot bullshit? They're both seen as pointy-headed irrelevances - if ever mentioned.

On the face of it, it's even more divisive.

 

[butchersapron]

It wouldn't.

But the importation from America is interesting and it suggests outright cross-class alliances might be made in the future once the recession deepens.

Yes, the derivation is important - it essentially is a way that posh (private liberal arts colleges and the stupid games that people who see themselves as politicos - students and faculty both) seek to force others into not only recogising them as key to any social change, but as a leader in the game of social change through a collective denial of material conditions and realities and their consequences - including, directly for them. Inherently cross-class.

 

[Firky]

This stuff - intersectionality or kyriarchy - isn't at all part of any history syllabuses.

My tutor was John Molyneux which is why I probably came across the terms.

Very nice bloke btw.

 

[Mr.Bishie]

Posh words which we don't understand. Pass me the fucking shot gun & let the lead do the talking

 

[sihhi]

I wasn't suggesting that it was - or part of any syllabus at all. I was saying that this is what these type of people seem to have studied at their elite/private liberal arts colleges.

In America yeah and also women's studies.

In Britain leftie students having studied history tend to be Labour - harder versions of Tristram Hunt.

It seems part of some syllabuses - especially at Masters level taught courses.
So there are whole events in German universities with anglo links that are focused just on intersectionality

http://www.cgc.uni-frankfurt.de/intersectionality/programme.shtml

 

[butchersapron]

harder versions of Tristram Hunt.

Articul8?

 

[equationgirl]

I think what words like intersectionality and kyriarchy show is that you can make up a 'language' to describe your way of pigeonholing the world around you.

 

[butchersapron]

I think what words like intersectionality and kyriarchy show is that you can make up a 'language' to describe your way of pigeonholing the world around you.

More to exclude the world around you,and the people in it. It's perfect bubble language.

 

[equationgirl]

More to exclude the world around you,and the people in it. It's perfect bubble language.

Good point - it's about exclusion, not inclusion, of the world from your bubble. Cheers butchers

 

[Firky]

Posh words which we don't understand. Pass me the fucking shot gun & let the lead do the talking

They don't want the likes of you anyway, so jog on, male scum.

 

[equationgirl]

This thread is ace, I'm learning lots.

 

[equationgirl]

They don't want the likes of you anyway, so jog on, male scum.

I don't think they want any of us, to be honest.

 

[Firky]

Bet you can't wait to use those words at Firebox over a cup of Agitator.

 

[cesare]

Cheers, dot. Has anyone mentioned kyriachy yet, if not can I bags it to look clever?

You can only look clever if you spell it correctly.

 

[equationgirl]

Bet you can't wait to use those words at Firebox over a cup of Agitator.

I'm not going to be anywhere near Firebox soon, so no. Is it still going?

 

[sihhi]

Yes, the derivation is important - it essentially is a way that posh (private liberal arts colleges and the stupid games that people who see themselves as politicos - students and faculty both) seek to force others into not only recogising them as key to any social change, but as a leader in the game of social change through a collective denial of material conditions and realities and their consequences - including, directly for them. Inherently cross-class.

I'm thinking the outright 'charitify'-ication of all social struggles. Making mission statements and inclusivity statements for all and any campaign, seeking funding from other masters.

As soon as a compromise deal that still shafts everyone is offered, accepting it if it is attacking an 'oppressed group' slightly less than attacking everyone else is a big achievement.
With the student occupations on Palestine a while back - as soon as token annual scholarships were offered to like 4 Palestinian students - who had already completed university there was a split. Some were 'no let's hold on longer and force some actual disclosure from university managements'. In the end those who wanted the scholarships and not total disruption of university life won out, and the 'occupations' (seizures of unused rooms in some cases) ended.

What's to stop scholarships for Somali female students being part of the official way of university life?
(I'm thinking in a higher education thing, because that's where this stuff is.)
An 'intersectional' approach says yeah Somali students in higher education are necessary they are at a critical intersection - Muslim, refugee, women. Whereas the traditional Labourist/some Marxist approach says reduce fees for all - we don't want scholarships, stick 'em.
Both sides can end up unable to agree on a common platform - so nothing is won.

Also There are syllabuses that do do 'intersectionality' - it's a module in its own right in lots of universities in the US, not all posh liberal arts colleges. If you google intersectionality syllabus you get straight away

PDF]
Intersectionality - University of Maryland
www.bsos.umd.edu/socy/syllabi/socy729_pcollins.pdfFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Patricia Hill Collins – DRAFT - SOCY729. Page 1. 9/10/2012. Intersectionality. SOCY 729. Advanced Topics in Social Theory. University of Maryland. Fall 2012 ...

[PDF]
Intersectionality Syllabus - Patrick Ryan Grzanka
grzanka.faculty.asu.edu/photos/IntersectionalitySyllabus.pdfFile Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Fall 201x. “Intersectionality”. Instructor: Patrick R. Grzanka, Ph.D. “Speaking simultaneously from 'within and against' both women's liberation and antiracist ...

[PDF]
Course Syllabus WSDB 398/P: INTERSECTIONALITY Professor ...
wsdb.concordia.ca/programsandcourses/.../WSDB398-P_Syllabus.pd...File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
Course Syllabus. WSDB 398/P: INTERSECTIONALITY. Professor: Anna Carastathis. Winter Term 2009. Course Meetings: January 6 to April 9, 2009. Tues ...
L9151 Intersectionalities: Theorizing Multiple Discrimination, Identity ...
www.law.columbia.edu/.../L9151-intersectionalities-theorizing-multi...Taking note of the 20th year anniversary of the intersectional framework, the ... including section descriptions

 

[Firky]

I'm not going to be anywhere near Firebox soon, so no. Is it still going?

More than likely, it has only been open a few monhts. I'd go, out of curiosity and because it can't be as bad as we have made it out to be.

You can only look clever if you spell it correctly.

Aye, it's not a word that I am familiar with so typos happen. I spelt it correctly the second time around though

 

[cesare]

There are apparently two new "isms" to throw into the mix, now too.

Classtivism and specifism.

 

[snadge]

Aye, it's not a word that I am familiar with so typos happen. I spelt it correctly the second time around though

Who gets the rights on spelling a new made up word, maybe if we all spell it Firky's way from now on whist using it frivolously all over the internet, OUR spelling will be the norm.

 

[Firky]

Classtivism flows off the tongue so eloquently.

 

[equationgirl]

There are apparently two new "isms" to throw into the mix, now too.

Classtivism and specifism.

New year, new 'isms'?

So what are these ones then?

 

[equationgirl]

I think I want to invent some isms of my own.

 

[cesare]

New year, new 'isms'?

So what are these ones then?

Fuck knows. I gave up reading the articles they were in.