Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[snadge]

As for this privilege stuff, isn't the whole point of it to recognise all sources of power, not fucking rank them? A white working-class man may have more power (on average) than a black working-class man, but he is considerably less powerful (on average) than a black middle-class woman.

What I get from all this is that the working class do not even bother about any of this privilege shite, it is the likes of the middle/upper class wankers that are trying to discord decent voices by pigeonholing and ranking people, this is probably why I blew up earlier in the thread and got pulled for it.

For which I aplogise once again for.

 

[rekil]

Can this thread make a quarter of a million page views before the year is about?
And has Laurie Penny ever heard of the Streisand Effect?

Not a chance unless Laurie comes back to troll her own thread a bit more, or a drunken billy bragg turns up.

 

[snadge]

Not a chance unless Laurie comes back to troll her own thread a bit more, or a drunken billy bragg turns up.

I was at a miner's benefit do during the miner's strike and Billy Bragg was headlining, he came on stage and started doing his heavy political speech, my mate Swizz, cupped his hands together and shouted at him, 'shut the fuck up and sing'.

 

[ymu]

What I get from all this is that the working class do not even bother about any of this privilege shite, it is the likes of the middle/upper class wankers that are trying to discord decent voices by pigeonholing and ranking people, this is probably why I blew up earlier in the thread and got pulled for it.

For which I aplogise once again for.

I agree with that but there is another side of that coin. Unions dominated by white working-class men, way back when unions had power and used it, had no incentive to fight for immigrants who were perceived to be threatening jobs (however counter-productive excluding them might be) or for women to receive equal access to and pay in the workplace. There was a need for the rest of the class to stick up for ourselves you know, 'specially as we massively outnumber you privileged fuckers.

The over-articulate, under-empathetic middle-class types could get that. And they dominated the discourse until everyone else fucked off and left them to it. But the pendulum doesn't have to swing all the way back to the point that it's not even possible to discuss 'privilege' in the serious parts of the left.

My partner was the only black member of a left sect. They made sure he spoke at meetings, they had a black member you see. But they only ever got him involved otherwise if they wanted drugs or dodgy gear for a benefit gig. When he raised the distinct lack of black members, he was told that class subsumes race. "Well, yeah. But doesn't that mean you should have loads of black members?"

The sniping is fun, but there's some serious issues here.

 

[cesare]

The only time I've seen Billy Bragg live we slipped out in the interval and didn't go back in. Rachel Unthank and the Winterset had been on by then, which was the only reason for going tbf.

 

[equationgirl]

Given that I'm a bipolar Aspie with chronic asthma, diabetes, high blood cholesterol and probable epilepsy, does that automatically entitle me to a leading and highly-paid opinion column syndicated everywhere on the planet and a series of increasingly lucrative career opportunities?

Or does it entitle me to be spoken for by self-appointed 'voices of the movement' who'll then pocket the cash and recycle my words and thoughts as their own because I'm obviously too impaired to be allowed free use of either?

Maybe some of should play disability top trumps to work out who is the real voice of the movement...

 

[equationgirl]

And Chris Man-whatever his name is, it's regimen of reading material, not regiment.

 

[Nice one]

I was at a miner's benefit do during the miner's strike and Billy Bragg was headlining, he came on stage and started doing his heavy political speech, my mate Swizz, cupped his hands together and shouted at him, 'shut the fuck up and sing'.

shouting for 'which side are you on' no doubt?

 

[Frances Lengel]

And Chris Man-whatever his name is, it's regimen of reading material, not regiment.

One does expect better from someone who just has to write.

 

[sihhi]

One of the problems for the Oxbridge types, as I know from painful experience, is dealing with crippling middle-class guilt.

How can middle-class guilt cripple anything? Most of these people don't feel much guilt and have less shame.

But a lot of these people are on the left because they want to be liked by poor people, not because they 'get' the politics. That is why they are so easily distracted by the killing of brown people abroad and so absent from community and workplace action at home.

Very, very few from Oxbridge are 'on the left'. But taking the Oxbridge graduates Owen Jones, Laurie Penny and George Monbiot, using your phrase, it's about them liking/ wanting to like 'poor people'. That's the key part.
If LP wanted to be liked, why is her last exit on this board so final; why does OJ call those who don't like pronouncements Third Period and Stalinist; why does GM write such a caricature of an article? None of that is the behaviour of those desperate to be liked by people.

They're so busy denying their privilege they never get to realise that it is not enough.

They're not 'denying' their 'privilege'. In their own analysis, on their own terms, they've sorted it out, they're the ones admitting their privilege, it's others that have to do the same.

 

[Nice one]

Normal leftish leaning people who read the guardian and the new statesman and who are not involved in activism for the far left. So quite a lot of people.

...the graduate without a future, the newly proletarianised middle class, the squeezed middle, everyone in fact, except the ordinary working class.

 

[equationgirl]

One does expect better from someone who just has to write.

One does - if you have to write (and write and write and write) at least proof-read it before you publish it.

 

[Orang Utan]

...the graduate without a future, the newly proletarianised middle class, the squeezed middle, everyone in fact, except the ordinary working class.

Well yes of course. But there is a substantial group of people who unquestioningly read the newspapers and magazines this lot write in. I'm not sure they have much influence on either the working classes or the powers that be.

 

[ymu]

How can middle-class guilt cripple anything? Most of these people don't feel much guilt and have less shame.

Of course most rich fuckers have no shame, but those that are attracted to the left, usually as teenagers, are usually ashamed of their privilege and want to downplay it. All those public school scholarships ...

Very, very few from Oxbridge are 'on the left'. But taking the Oxbridge graduates Owen Jones, Laurie Penny and George Monbiot, using your phrase, it's about them liking/ wanting to like 'poor people'. That's the key part.
If LP wanted to be liked, why is her last exit on this board so final; why does OJ call those who don't like pronouncements Third Period and Stalinist; why does GM write such a caricature of an article? None of that is the behaviour of those desperate to be liked by people.

That's who I meant by "Oxbridge types". Those on the 'left commentariat' or in New Labour.

And I'm talking about why they were attracted to the left in the first place. not how they behave once they're 'established'. They're supremely confident, born and raised for this, and in denial about the degree to which their privilege matters. They're in this weird kind of self-reinforcing bubble.

They're not 'denying' their 'privilege'. In their own analysis, on their own terms, they've sorted it out, they're the ones admitting their privilege, it's others that have to do the same.

Can't remember my precise wording, but I was referring to them being in denial about the true extent of their privilege, especially that part of it conferred on them by an accident of birth.

 

[killer b]

there is a substantial group of people who unquestioningly read the newspapers and magazines this lot write in.

not sure if William counts as a substantial group of people tbf.

 

[love detective]

he could and should have done a few years in the real world given that he criticises the culture of going straight into politics with fuck all experience (in mitigation, it was Chavs wot launched him into the spotlight, and he shouldn't be criticised for writing up stuff he worked on whilst at university - but he didn't have to take all the jobs offered off the back of it).

bear in mind though that he was working as a parliamentary researcher/MP's lackey for 4 years prior to Chavs coming out, so he didn't get those political jobs off the back of Chavs - he went straight from oxford into politics, something that you rightly point out he criticises others for doing, in his book

 

[DotCommunist]

in happier news his puddle deep overview of hillsborough will need revising because since the publication of that book steps towards proper justice have been made

 

[ymu]

bear in mind though that he was working as a parliamentary researcher/MP's lackey for 4 years prior to Chavs coming out, so he didn't get those political jobs off the back of Chavs - he went straight from oxford into politics, something that you rightly point out he criticises others for doing, in his book

Ah, cheers. Got my timeline confused.

<Owen Jones makes self-deprecating joke about youthful appearance>

 

[sihhi]

And I'm talking about why they were attracted to the left in the first place. not how they behave once they're 'established'. They're supremely confident, born and raised for this, and in denial about the degree to which their privilege matters. They're in this weird kind of self-reinforcing bubble.

I can accept that - just not sure how far it goes - this wanting to be liked by poor people when they start out leftwards. There's many other ways to achieve that (being liked by the poor) - general charity stuff etc would probably work better than being a megaphone-marcher.
Perhaps it's more as seeing other cool people of a similar class, wanting to join in - usually at university not teenage years. Oxbridge might be different, Oxbridge has much less 'student activism' compared to the London universities or Essex or Brighton. I don't see any teenage upper-class leftists.
If it was about guilt then it would be US SWP style "salting" solely working in basic industry with fellow comrades (not that that's necessarily the right way).

 

[ymu]

They're hardly upper class.

The Oxford Union is for the career political types - I doubt more than half the students bother joining it - and the NUS is for 'the left'. They organise a fair bit, bring motions, and organise coaches to marches. It varies a lot from college to college. Some are a lot more leftwing and active than others.

The Lady Bountiful thing doesn't work. That would be to acknowledge and display their privilege. These types live in squats 6 days a week and then go home for laundry and Sunday lunch. They're in denial.

 

[smokedout]

How can middle-class guilt cripple anything? Most of these people don't feel much guilt and have less shame.


They're not 'denying' their 'privilege'. In their own analysis, on their own terms, they've sorted it out, they're the ones admitting their privilege, it's others that have to do the same.

that's how you know you've checked your privilege enough, you stop feeling guilty

 

[snadge]

Well yes of course. But there is a substantial group of people who unquestioningly read the newspapers and magazines this lot write in. I'm not sure they have much influence on either the working classes or the powers that be.

None of these cunts care about the working class, all they care about is their career.

That is why they alienate the working class with divides.

 

[Bakunin]

One does - if you have to write (and write and write and write) at least proof-read it before you publish it.

Would this be a time to mention to LP and her ilk little things like fact-checking, putting other people's well-being before a juicy byline, not plagiarising and not falsifying and/or misquoting the people they actually did speak to rather than making up whole interviews with people they've never even met?

Or would demanding proper professional standards be oppressing the poor little darlings with honesty and ethics?

 

[sihhi]

They're hardly upper class.

Owen Jones no - public-sector Labour-minded middle-class. But George Monbiot and Laurie Penny their families are well above that.

The Oxford Union is for the career political types - I doubt more than half the students bother joining it - and the NUS is for 'the left'. They organise a fair bit, bring motions, and organise coaches to marches. It varies a lot from college to college. Some are a lot more leftwing and active than others.

So it is possible to be non-political before as a teenager and swing left there, suggesting the radicalisation doesn't happen in teenage years.

The Lady Bountiful thing doesn't work. That would be to acknowledge and display their privilege. These types live in squats 6 days a week and then go home for laundry and Sunday lunch. They're in denial.

But that can't be from guilt then. Guilt would mean either helping someone poor enter an empty you've secured/re-connected or allowing them to stay in your home you have your lunch at.

 

[frogwoman]

I dont think guilt comes into it for the likes of laurie penny

 

[snadge]

I dont think guilt comes into it for the likes of laurie penny

No it is career, she is divisive scum.

 

[frogwoman]

she just wants to get a job out of it. at the guardian.

 

[sihhi]

that's how you know you've checked your privilege enough, you stop feeling guilty

/ How does it work for race then? Are there people genuinely feeling guilty that they were born white and born in Britain? Really?
'Privilege' as understood in the context of privilege politics doesn't mean 'guilt', it's a number of other things right. I'm still trying to understand how it operates - it does get more and more confusing the deeper you go. It's still a rubbish name and I prefer the old labels of systemic or structural (anti-)sexism, racism and sexual chauvinism.

 

[Steel Icarus]

http://www.afed.org.uk/blog/state/3...rivilege-theory--from-the-womens-caucus-.html

I got sent this. I don't really understand it all, to be honest, being a thick prole divvy and all, but it does seem rather a long way from almost every instance I've seen of people being asked to check their privilege. I dunno, I just loathe buzzwords like all this stuff. Mansplaining, privilege, trigger warnings...

 

[snadge]

she just wants to get a job out of it. at the guardian.

I personally think these type of cunts want to make a movement out of it, not just a career, to make money of the the subjugation of their lessers and divide the working class, they are racists and sexists at the heart of it.