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Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

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@ska invita : this thread isn't all negative, far from it, as I keep pointing out there are compliments on some of her writing and repeated attempts to positively engage with her.

She responded by calling everyone a misogynist and racist. Who's bullying whom?
 
Fucking hell, I can't keep up with this thread!
12 pages in a few hours!
Has anyone noticed that she describes herself as a 'gentlewoman of fortune'? Doesn't that mean 'pirate'?
 
I thought it was a play on the term, "soldier of fortune" a reference to her militant leftism.
 
Maybe it's like soldier of fortune?

ETA: oh no, I'm thinking like firky, at the same time and everything. The liver is taking over my mind as well...
 
equationgirl said:
@ska invita : this thread isn't all negative, far from it, as I keep pointing out there are compliments on some of her writing and repeated attempts to positively engage with her.

She responded by calling everyone a misogynist and racist. Who's bullying whom?
Click to expand...

Her approach seems to be to ignore criticism when she can, smear and shout down when she thinks she can get away with it and then play the 'woe is me' card when the smearing and shouting down doesn't work. Ignore them, smear them, bully them or if none of those work start with the crocodile tears.

It's dishonest, it's manipulative, it's offensive and it's also an abuse of a public profile that enables her to throw all kinds of shit at people for disagreeing with her while doing her best to inhibit their right to reply. I fully agree with being as firm as necessary with any threats, insults for the sake of insults or hitting below the belt, but that applies as much to her as it does to anyone else and she's rarely averse to adopting dirty tactics and then complaining about suffering the same. I'm not keen on her little habit of making things seem as though people have behaved rather worse than they actually did (I'm no fan at all of Starkey, but he could hardly have been said to have 'attacked' her and IIRC she was the one who hit below the belt by bringing up his personal, private financial and tax matters in the first place).

It's like seeing a boxer complain about the occasional clash of heads while at the same time concealing a horseshoe in their glove.
 
snadge said:
I think she is guilty of all of those practices from this incident, Misquotation maybe not though.
Click to expand...

5/6 from just 33 posts in one day on this thread isn't bad as an example of this journalist's typical workflow.

Given that this is their standard way of working, that they get paid - well paid - for these sorts of things, for inaccurately reporting on real people doing real things in real places; well paid by relatively 'respectable' news organisations; does that not offer some perpective on the depth of feeling?

When someone born out of such a materially, socially privileged background cruises through all fourteen stations of bourgeois benefit, tracing every cliché from private school to Oxbridge degree, then decides to reinvent themself as - for example - a crusading, edgy, voice-of-the-voiceless gonzo journalist, reporting from the frontline (etc)... Then it may seem politic to revise one's past refinements, if only to square the circle.

But if you cannot acknowledge who you yourself are, where you have come from, then why should anyone entrust to your hands their story?
 
ViolentPanda said:
You calling me a "she"? :mad:

:D
Click to expand...

Sorry, on phone now so can't do proper replies. Just to say that I meant Vintage Paw above. I would never pretend to know your gender unless explicitly told...

If forced at gun point though, I'd have to guess someone named Violet Pansies was definitely a female ;)
 
ska invita said:
Ive read a lot of it - dipped into it in the past but once i got the point i wasnt interested to follow it, and read a lot more recently...the fact pretty much every article, post, tweet, plus personal background has been dissected makes me feel very uncomfortable too - angry on occasion (some lines of decency were crossed)- it does feel a lot like bullying. But then again theres been some really interesting stuff to come out of it, and genuine attempts to broaden it out. Forums aren't perfect I guess, and the messiness is all part of it.

and


is definitely true, but
<hard to argue against that either - like several posters have said id be physically sick if i found this thread and it had so much stuff about me. It may do all Chilango says but it has gone into depth on her personal life and looked at pretty much every article shes ever written, filling up at least 50% of the pages here, if not more. That concentration in itself feels like bullying. But if you're putting writing in the public domain, that has to invite feedback and if you throw yourself in every spotlight and get up on every platform you have to be prepared for this kind of thing.

I wonder what would ever bring this thread to an end? Its run 2 years already. Seems to me theres appetite to keep watching her every tweet and article for ever. This mooted non-LP article? that would be good, but I cant see it happening. Would be great if it did - or something similiar. The only conclusion would be if Laurie signed up to the board permanently i reckon... Really got stuck in. If you cant beat them join em. Shame that hasnt happened. Cant go in half-arsed.

Failing that maybe a game of armistice football on Christmas Day with Laurie and her gang on one team (Danny Finklestein can go in goal).

ha yeah, it is also interesting to see a clashing of Celebrity Twittersphere vs Proley Forums.
Click to expand...
I found digging up an old local newspaper story about her school grades really creepy, that would freak anyone out.
 
Im pretty sure gentleman of fortune is a euphemism for privateer.
It did make me think of trust funds though, like killer b
 
just to recap her lies about starkeygate

Laurie Penny
@PennyRed
Was attacked on stage by David Starkey at #edfest. That's what racists do when you call them out on their bigotry. Bit shaken but I'll be ok
Click to expand...
David Goodhart@David_Goodhart
@PennyRed You weren't attacked, Starkey defended himself from your silly claims that he's a tax-avoiding racist, you messed up a good debate
Click to expand...

edit: David Goodhart was the moderator/chair of the debate by the way, not just some random on twitter
 
I have to confess that I'm so old and out of touch with Yoof culture that I've never read anything by Laurie Penny. Saw her once on Newsnight. Didn't come across as the iconic voice of radical yoof to me. Far too polite. I've watched this thread and never understood it's obsessive hostility to this young journalist. I get the point made repeatedly, ad nauseam, by posters that that she irritatingly poses as the "current holder of the radical yoof zeitgeist" whilst having a privileged upbringing and connections-assisted entry, (like the majority of journalists), into that well paid profession, and has no record of selfless long term commitment to any progressive causes. Got that - but umpteen million words by posters to ram home that point ? bit excessive. And whilst a lot of the different variations repeating this point are well made, a speedy skim read through the thread does, I'm afraid, give the overall impression of a bunch of resentful blokes (overwhelmingly blokes) who'd love to have had the opportunity to use their own undoubted writing skills in journalism, slagging off a successful , posh, pushy, middle class , woman in a distinctly "slap up that bitch" kinda way. It just does - despite the interesting points sprinkled through the thread. That dreadful cartoon, though denounced, is still emblematic of this overall mean "thread spirit".

As to why Laurie Penny thought, on apresumeably quickie read of an IWCA article on its distinctive (American sourced) "take" on " multiculturalism" and "identity politics" that some IWCA members or co thinkers might be "racists" ? Outrage and blood spattered indignation from the accused.. threats of lawyers. The biters bit. But why did an intelligent journalist read that article and think that ? She may be irritating and middle class, but she's not stupid.

Possibly because the IWCA uses the term "multicultural" in its political analysis in a way that is very different to its usage by 99.999999999% of the UK population. For most people "multiculturalism" simply means "a tolerance and indeed support for minority group rights within the wider society", (whether that be based on ethnicity, religion, culture, gender, sexuality, colour . etc). For most of us Lefties, that is a "good thing" -- a slightly more civilized society even within capitalism. Even though we all recognise that it often cuts across the primacy of self identity by class. It's called "respecting people's beliefs and cultural values" and not expecting everyone , indeed anyone, to identify themselves only in social class terms. Nobody does, or ever will. Doesn't mean a Jew, Muslim or Catholic can't be a good trades unionist though, or take part in the class struggle. The BNP in contrast is deeply opposed to our "multicultural society" and away from the cameras they really believe in "all wogs, Gyppos,niggers, Muslims, poofs, Lesbian feminists, commies, etc ... out -- or indeed possibly into the gas chambers".

The IWCA in contrast cheekily claim that the BNP are actually themselves the real "Multiculturalists" ..( but only in the same way that the South African apartheid regime was "multiculturalist" .. ie, for complete separation of ethnic groups and White supremacy). The BNP should sue - they really aren't "multiculturalists" by the conventional usage of the term in the UK. "Multiculturalism for the IWCA is essentially not a progressive social development of the last 40 years or so, but at root a deliberate capitalist state conspiracy to entrench working class people in their "surface differences" - preventing them from embracing their shared "working class" identity. This is all a bit "crude neo Marxism" - as interpreted by a 14 year old Trot.. ie, all minority community self identification other than by social class is "false consciousness" - and a diversion from the class struggle. Rather crude, and rather arrogantly dismissive of the cultural and religious, sexual, and cultural values of millions of working class people. All the more peculiar since the IWCA is neither politically Socialist or Marxist.

That Laurie Penny misinterpreted the peculiar, special, usage by the IWCA of the concept of "multiculturalism" is hardly surprising. It is a bit "out there" politically and conceptually. Many White racists make the same mistake. Maybe the problem lies with the peculiar, non standard, usage the IWCA makes of words like "multiculturalism", and indeed its entire mistaken "take" on the "identity politics" theory itself ?
 
emanymton said:
I found digging up an old local newspaper story about her school grades really creepy, that would freak anyone out.
Click to expand...

A lot of people who are prominent journalists in their field, such as Laurie, have had their background looked at and examined as an explanation of how they formulate their opinions and beliefs. Wiki is full of references of people's educational background, what schools they went to etc. It's just in this case it included her grades and her intent to go to Oxford.

DaveCinzano said:
But if you cannot acknowledge who you yourself are, where you have come from, then why should anyone entrust to your hands their story?
Click to expand...
An example of sorts.

Orang Utan said:
Im pretty sure gentleman of fortune is a euphemism for privateer.
It did make me think of trust funds though, like killer b
Click to expand...

Or a reference to her fortunate automatic Oxbridge route.
 
edit: at ayatollah:
Agree with a lot of that, but a lot of the usage of the term 'multicultural' that I see by those on the right falls into what you might call the 'niche definition'.
 
Bakunin said:
Her approach seems to be to ignore criticism when she can, smear and shout down when she thinks she can get away with it and then play the 'woe is me' card when the smearing and shouting down doesn't work. Ignore them, smear them, bully them or if none of those work start with the crocodile tears.

It's dishonest, it's manipulative, it's offensive and it's also an abuse of a public profile that enables her to throw all kinds of shit at people for disagreeing with her while doing her best to inhibit their right to reply. I fully agree with being as firm as necessary with any threats, insults for the sake of insults or hitting below the belt, but that applies as much to her as it does to anyone else and she's rarely averse to adopting dirty tactics and then complaining about suffering the same. I'm not keen on her little habit of making things seem as though people have behaved rather worse than they actually did (I'm no fan at all of Starkey, but he could hardly have been said to have 'attacked' her and IIRC she was the one who hit below the belt by bringing up his personal, private financial and tax matters in the first place).

It's like seeing a boxer complain about the occasional clash of heads while at the same time concealing a horseshoe in their glove.
Click to expand...
Yes, completely agree, especially about Starkey. She clearly started it, couldn't take the retaliation from him which was factual and backed up by evidence, then tried to play the victim which didn't work and just would not be quiet when the debate chair tried to a) move things on and b) wrap up the debate.

She may be 26 but her behaviour doesn't show it in that instance.
 
emanymton said:
I found digging up an old local newspaper story about her school grades really creepy, that would freak anyone out.
Click to expand...
No one dug it up ffs the name was put on twitter by people who at the time she accused of making threats to her and and members of her family and of posting up explicit pictures of her, but who now is happy receive awards from - and if you put that name in google you come up with a very different story about her and her schools relationship with oxbridge. So you get two for one there. And neither to do with grades.

I wonder how many similar points and crucial contexts you've managed to miss or are unaware of - and if they're the same ones so obviously driving the recent contributions of IWNW and sleaterkinney (though it should be clear that the latter also has long running personal animosities driving him onwards) and maybe others reading but not commenting?
 
The way she harps on about being a good person, a carer, someone who really feels and grieves over people's circumstances reminds me of a poem by Bukowski

there is enough treachery, hatred violence absurdity in the average
human being to supply any given army on any given day

and the best at murder are those who preach against it
and the best at hate are those who preach love
and the best at war finally are those who preach peace

those who preach god, need god
those who preach peace do not have peace
those who preach peace do not have love

beware the preachers
beware the knowers
beware those who are always reading books
beware those who either detest poverty
or are proud of it
beware those quick to praise
for they need praise in return
beware those who are quick to censor
they are afraid of what they do not know
beware those who seek constant crowds for
they are nothing alone
beware the average man the average woman
beware their love, their love is average
seeks average

but there is genius in their hatred
there is enough genius in their hatred to kill you
to kill anybody
not wanting solitude
not understanding solitude
they will attempt to destroy anything
that differs from their own
not being able to create art
they will not understand art
they will consider their failure as creators
only as a failure of the world
not being able to love fully
they will believe your love incomplete
and then they will hate you
and their hatred will be perfect

like a shining diamond
like a knife
like a mountain
like a tiger
like hemlock

their finest art
Click to expand...
 
ayatollah said:
As to why Laurie Penny thought, on apresumeably quickie read of an IWCA article on its distinctive (American sourced) "take" on " multiculturalism" and "identity politics" that some IWCA members or co thinkers might be "racists" ? Outrage and blood spattered indignation from the accused.. threats of lawyers. The biters bit. But why did an intelligent journalist read that article and think that ? She may be irritating and middle class, but she's not stupid.
Click to expand...
She didn't read it you div. She used what networked media and social power she has to dismiss it, to smear it and to police who can contribute to political debate and what they may debate about - and on lines drawn transparently from a set of social prejudices that derive from her privileged background. You have entirely missed the point.
 
ayatollah said:
I have to confess that I'm so old and out of touch with Yoof culture that I've never read anything by Laurie Penny. Saw her once on Newsnight. Didn't come across as the iconic voice of radical yoof to me. Far too polite. I've watched this thread and never understood it's obsessive hostility to this young journalist. I get the point made repeatedly, ad nauseam, by posters that that she irritatingly poses as the "current holder of the radical yoof zeitgeist" whilst having a privileged upbringing and connections-assisted entry, (like the majority of journalists), into that well paid profession, and has no record of selfless long term commitment to any progressive causes. Got that - but umpteen million words by posters to ram home that point ? bit excessive. And whilst a lot of the different variations repeating this point are well made, a speedy skim read through the thread does, I'm afraid, give the overall impression of a bunch of resentful blokes (overwhelmingly blokes) who'd love to have had the opportunity to use their own undoubted writing skills in journalism, slagging off a successful , posh, pushy, middle class , woman in a distinctly "slap up that bitch" kinda way. It just does - despite the interesting points sprinkled through the thread. That dreadful cartoon, though denounced, is still emblematic of this overall mean "thread spirit".

As to why Laurie Penny thought, on apresumeably quickie read of an IWCA article on its distinctive (American sourced) "take" on " multiculturalism" and "identity politics" that some IWCA members or co thinkers might be "racists" ? Outrage and blood spattered indignation from the accused.. threats of lawyers. The biters bit. But why did an intelligent journalist read that article and think that ? She may be irritating and middle class, but she's not stupid.

Possibly because the IWCA uses the term "multicultural" in its political analysis in a way that is very different to its usage by 99.999999999% of the UK population. For most people "multiculturalism" simply means "a tolerance and indeed support for minority group rights within the wider society", (whether that be based on ethnicity, religion, culture, gender, sexuality, colour . etc). For most of us Lefties, that is a "good thing" -- a slightly more civilized society even within capitalism. Even though we all recognise that it often cuts across the primacy of self identity by class. It's called "respecting people's beliefs and cultural values" and not expecting everyone , indeed anyone, to identify themselves only in social class terms. Nobody does, or ever will. Doesn't mean a Jew, Muslim or Catholic can't be a good trades unionist though, or take part in the class struggle. The BNP in contrast is deeply opposed to our "multicultural society" and away from the cameras they really believe in "all wogs, Gyppos,niggers, Muslims, poofs, Lesbian feminists, commies, etc ... out -- or indeed possibly into the gas chambers".

The IWCA in contrast cheekily claim that the BNP are actually themselves the real "Multiculturalists" ..( but only in the same way that the South African apartheid regime was "multiculturalist" .. ie, for complete separation of ethnic groups and White supremacy). The BNP should sue - they really aren't "multiculturalists" by the conventional usage of the term in the UK. "Multiculturalism for the IWCA is essentially not a progressive social development of the last 40 years or so, but at root a deliberate capitalist state conspiracy to entrench working class people in their "surface differences" - preventing them from embracing their shared "working class" identity. This is all a bit "crude neo Marxism" - as interpreted by a 14 year old Trot.. ie, all minority community self identification other than by social class is "false consciousness" - and a diversion from the class struggle. Rather crude, and rather arrogantly dismissive of the cultural and religious, sexual, and cultural values of millions of working class people. All the more peculiar since the IWCA is neither politically Socialist or Marxist.

That Laurie Penny misinterpreted the peculiar, special, usage by the IWCA of the concept of "multiculturalism" is hardly surprising. It is a bit "out there" politically and conceptually. Many White racists make the same mistake. Maybe the problem lies with the peculiar, non standard, usage the IWCA makes of words like "multiculturalism", and indeed its entire mistaken "take" on the "identity politics" theory itself ?
Click to expand...

You can fuck off too. If you like I'll give you her email so you can convince her of the need for SOCIALISM!
 
butchersapron said:
No one dug it up ffs the name was put on twitter by people who at the time she accused of making threats to her and and members of her family and of posting up explicit pictures of her, but who now is happy receive awards from - and if you put that name in google you come up with a very different story about her and her schools relationship with oxbridge. So you get two for one there. And neither to do with grades.

I wonder how many similar points and crucial contexts you've managed to miss or are unaware of - and if they're the same ones so obviously driving the recent contributions of IWNW and sleaterkinney (though it should be clear that the latter also has long running personal animosities driving him onwards) and maybe others reading but not commenting?
Click to expand...
If I had the time to dig back through the thread to when it was first posted and check I would, but as I remember it someone on here found the article and then posted it on here I find that rather creepy, and to put it up agin when she turned up on the thread was really silly thing to do it was bound to freak her out, it would me.
 
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