Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[ViolentPanda]

Both, just like I said. I think he's a crap poster, and he signed back on using a different nick after being banned. What's your point?

Let's get this right: Since he was banned as LLETSA, he's been back under at least 4 other identities. sam goloden wasn't the only one.

 

[SpineyNorman]

Well, hers wasn't really on here if it was just a copy of the email. Perhaps you do take the dubious honour.

And of course this is another way in which she can use her privilege isn't it? She gets to say that and I have no recourse to come back whatsoever - I don't have a Guardian column or anything in which I can refute these claims, I'm sure if Laura was slandered in such a way she'd be able to call in the lawyers and I can't.

Check your privilege @lauriepenny

 

[cesare]

It wasn't an exact "check your privilege", but I think I'm right in remembering her say something like, "unchecked white male privilege" is what made her react the way she did? Hope I haven't imagined that....

No, exactly, it wasn't an exact:

These two posts got me thinking -- is Laurie the first person on Urban to say, in earnest, "check your privilege"?

Don't give her further ammunition.

 

[sleaterkinney]

I think having the username of a shit 90s band that nobody liked obliges you to take on viewpoints and fight the corner for shit opinions. Even though tossbags at the torygraph beat you to it.

Yeah

 

[Fez909]

Because in its place (as a set of tools for analysing social interaction) it's not without utility. What people generally are disagreeing with w/r/t "identity politics", is when "identity politics" replace any and every other mode of analysis, so all that is left is difference, with no focus on commonality or solidarity, no attention paid to how reducing identity to a series of positions on a hierarchy of oppression from which commentators can criticise (but seldom critique) each other merely does power's work for it.
"United we stand, divided we fall", and all that.

This is the bit I'm most confused about, though. As a tool, yes, I can definitely see how it would help you identify oppression due to your privilege over another. However, unless you notice the privileged position you're in (which I'd argue is the default case), the duty is on other people to make you aware that you're abusing your position in some way. This will, in my view, only close down discussion. Never open it up, nor give recourse to the perpetrator of the oppression. And if that's the case, then I don't think it's a valid tool.

edit: I mean isn't the default case, of course

 

[Belushi]

It happened soon after she started posting, post #6239 for example.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...cebook-handbags.266196/page-208#post-11794834

That posts actually spot on.

 

[SpineyNorman]

To be honest I think I'll leave it there - I'm in danger of taking it out on IWNW and SK who, despite clearly making claims about things they know nothing about, aren't responsible for what happened. It's been done to death anyway so I'll save my thoughts on it for LP herself.

 

[Fez909]

The irony

edit: this was meant to be @SpineyNorman but you can't quote quotes

 

[co-op]

I don't know the ends and outs of the alleged racism, but she came onto this board via a shitty cartoon and got treated badly once here and it's that I'm bothered about.

FWIW I think there's a good chance she's been aware of the thread before. U75 threads score highly on google and routinely come up on the first page & I don't believe for a minute that she's never googled herself in the last 2 years.

If she started posting after the cartoon that need mean nothing more than that was her best opportunity to come in as victim rather than perp.

 

[SpineyNorman]

It happened soon after she started posting, post #6239 for example.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...cebook-handbags.266196/page-208#post-11794834

OK, gonna look like a hypocrite now but since I'm already a racist it's hardly going to damage my reputation any further.

Not being funny or anything but is that really the best example of bullying you could find? It's hardly abusive and since that's precisely what did happen I'm not sure why you've picked it out.

 

[Citizen66]

Yeah, when everyone on here uses a pseudonym.

Penny Red is her real name?

In fact Laurie Penny isn't her real name either.

 

[Buckaroo]

And breathe everyone. Let's talk about Irony...

 

[SpineyNorman]

The irony

edit: this was meant to be @SpineyNorman but you can't quote quotes

At that time I'd forgotten what my sister did for a living - since then a few options presented themselves

I'm busy checking my own privilege now though so don't worry about it

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, as someone coming at this with a clean slate, so to speak, I asked for a description of what privilege theory actually is. Spanky gave a simplified explanation which I understood and was not challenged by anyone on the thread. I assume his explanation was accurate.

Given that's the true meaning of privilege theory, I asked how it could be used. No answer. 4 more pages of rubbish about whether the working classes are to blame for their own obesity. VP showed how it can be used, which is just "check your privilege" and she even admitted it's not especially useful if that's how it is used. No other way of using this tool was given.

It's a way of shutting down debate and nothing else, IMO. I'm prepared to be convinced otherwise.

You calling me a "she"?



Properly, "check your privilege" is no more or less than saying to someone "have a think about the perspective your point of view comes from". However, it can and IS used by mendacious people to shut down debate, and what they are saying, when they tell you to "check your privilege" is "I don't agree with you, but to give the reason would make me look foolish, so instead I'm going to imply that you're exerting cock/age/sexuality (delete as applicable) power over me".

 

[sleaterkinney]

OK, gonna look like a hypocrite now but since I'm already a racist it's hardly going to damage my reputation any further.

Not being funny or anything but is that really the best example of bullying you could find? It's hardly abusive and since that's precisely what did happen I'm not sure why you've picked it out.

No, I was responding to chilango's post saying "BUT she was treated pretty well upon arrival."

 

[redsquirrel]

It happened soon after she started posting, post #6239 for example.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...cebook-handbags.266196/page-208#post-11794834

Christ. That is pathetic, BA might have been a bit rude but her didn't abuse her in any way shape or form.

Are you going to go back and read up on the racism accusations or do they not fit in with what you want to believe?

 

[chilango]

It happened soon after she started posting, post #6239 for example.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...cebook-handbags.266196/page-208#post-11794834

Really? I don't think that post was "treating her badly". Not exactly friendly and certainly dismissive, but not out of the ordinary for "robust debate".

Also turned out to be remarkably prescient.

 

[cesare]

This is the bit I'm most confused about, though. As a tool, yes, I can definitely see how it would help you identify oppression due to your privilege over another. However, unless you notice the privileged position you're in (which I'd argue is the default case), the duty is on other people to make you aware that you're abusing your position in some way. This will, in my view, only close down discussion. Never open it up, nor give recourse to the perpetrator of the oppression. And if that's the case, then I don't think it's a valid tool.

edit: I mean isn't the default case, of course

Like any tool, it'll be blamed if it gets misused by a bad workman

 

[SpineyNorman]

No, I was responding to chilango's post saying "BUT she was treated pretty well upon arrival."

Come on fella, that's weak as fuck and you know it.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Just checked my privilege...seems I need an upgrade.

 

[DaveCinzano]

As the Johann Hari circus demonstrated, a dishonest journalist won't come clean unless forced to, and even then it's caveat and proviso and excuse after excuse.

Let's consider some of the practices we're talking about:

• Straight-out lying - knowingly saying or writing something that is inaccurate.
• Misrepresentation - using available fragments to build up an incorrect overall impression
• Misquotation - not accurately reporting the words of a subject
• Inaccurate citation - 'borrowing' quotations from elsewhere
• Personal advancement - deriving personal pecuniary, cultural or professional benefit from the above (in conflict with claimed political values)
• Smearing - falsely accusing others, either with mens rea or not

etc

 

[SpineyNorman]

You calling me a "she"?



Properly, "check your privilege" is no more or less than saying to someone "have a think about the perspective your point of view comes from". However, it can and IS used by mendacious people to shut down debate, and what they are saying, when they tell you to "check your privilege" is "I don't agree with you, but to give the reason would make me look foolish, so instead I'm going to imply that you're exerting cock/age/sexuality (delete as applicable) power over me".

Think he meant vintage paw not you mate.

 

[frogwoman]

My account is suspended apparently. For being rude to a wikileaks fanboy

 

[cesare]

You calling me a "she"?



Properly, "check your privilege" is no more or less than saying to someone "have a think about the perspective your point of view comes from". However, it can and IS used by mendacious people to shut down debate, and what they are saying, when they tell you to "check your privilege" is "I don't agree with you, but to give the reason would make me look foolish, so instead I'm going to imply that you're exerting cock/age/sexuality (delete as applicable) power over me".

Exactly, and that's what I mean by misuse/abuse. And that's what Laurie Penny does.

 

[redsquirrel]

Not being funny or anything but is that really the best example of bullying you could find? It's hardly abusive and since that's precisely what did happen I'm not sure why you've picked it out.

Aye that is a truly pathetic "example".

 

[sleaterkinney]

Really? I don't think that post was "treating her badly". Not exactly friendly and certainly dismissive, but not out of the ordinary for "robust debate".

Also turned out to be remarkably prescient.

"robust debate" it is then.

 

[SpineyNorman]

My account is suspended apparently. For being rude to a wikileaks fanboy

Happened to me yesterday, you just have to click the link to the suspensions service or whatever it was and promise to be a good girl from now on and they'll let you back on.

 

[chilango]

"robust debate" it is then.

Yep.

There are plenty of worse posts on here about LP. Some of which are nasty and targeted at her as an individual.

That wasn't one of them.

 

[Blagsta]

My account is suspended apparently. For being rude to a wikileaks fanboy

You'll get it back. I just had to enter some Captcha stuff and agree not to "abuse" (ask Laurie Penny questions) anymore.

 

[ViolentPanda]

I'm just putting myself in the shoes of the person it's directed at. I mean for fucks sake, its's over 300 pages about an individual who writes a blog. Not even Jimmy Saville got this.

Writes a blog, has columns in daily newspapers and a weekly magazine, is an author and appears on current affairs programmes on TV anbd Radio, so not just "an individual who writes a blog".