Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags
- Thread starter Prince Rhyus
- Start date
- Status
gosub
~#
Do they have recipes on stormfront? Guess they have pictures of kittens, probably just kittens that look like Hitler but they must have pictures of kittens
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
frogwoman
No amount of cajolery...
they'd probably view kitten pics as a jew distraction tbh.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
sonderbread
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
shoahtbread
a holocaust chocolate father christmas
eat more fish to aid concentration camps
Off this thread. Now. No really.
Well he isn't saying what I want him to say now that someone I don't care about but the whole thread is about has been on the thread, so quite right, get off.
Back to the point, here is my view on how the person I don't care about is wrong and should answer my questions, and recognise that I am the most important person on this thread.
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Chocolate Ghetto
Kris Kringalnacht
Stop you're making me hungry
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Santa is a sworn commie, for real
Dresses in red.
Gives shit away to the people
Keeps many Lists
Says Ho Ho Ho chi minh
So be good for THE SAKE OF THE INTERNATIONAL PROLETARIAT
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
Gates of Viennetta
weepiper
I fix the machines that fight climate change
DotCommunist
So many particulars. So many questions.
white bait with chips
framed
Leave it!
That's not fair, you're reading that from a bleedin' cookbook!
Fez909
toilet expert
I don't get why it's not mentioned more, either. I grew up in Park End and while that's not the best place in the world (you'll probably say it's as bad as Grangetown now, and I was unaware as I lived there), even I was shocked when I saw the state of South Bank etc. I did my driving lessons around there practicing three-point turns and emergency stops, and remember being just shocked at how run down the place was.
Then I had a similar experience the first (and only) time I went to Port Clarence. When you and C66 were talking about where he lived earlier, I was wondering if he was going to say Port Clarence and had to Google it to see if it even existed these days. Apparently it does, but it sounds even worse than I remember. There's was a house for sale for £750 only two months ago...and the owner was unsure it would sell so was considering making it a buy one get one free deal.
Since moving away, the scale of poverty in the area has been revealed to me, and it makes me sad. And no one's talking about it.
BigTom
Well-Known Member
Well, that was an apology from Laurie in there.. the whole letter (and that she posted it publicly here) has just left me feeling like I have absolutely no understanding of how Laurie thinks though, can't believe how patronising she is when she says "All you needed to do, and this is very, very important, was treat me like a human being." urgh.
It's still a shame that she hasn't read the thread or is choosing to misrepresent what it is. For people coming here, it's worth having a look backwards from page 208 to find the cartoon that firky posted and read the thread's reaction to it (I don't know what page it was, I know Laurie came here on page 208 as a result of that cartoon). You could also search for a post by Articul8 about Deborah Orr, though I don't think he mentions her name, and then read through the ensuing bunfight as people call out and challenge his comment. There are plenty of examples of sexist/mysogynistic comments on this thread, those are the two I can remember. I'm confident that most if not all of the comments made have been challenged by multiple posters on this thread, as they generally are around the rest of the boards.
Even if we ignore the derails, a lot of this thread isn't about Laurie, but is about other people in similar positions of privilege - Ellie Mae O'Hagan, Sunny Hundal & Owen Jones spring to mind - but as Laurie is the most prominent (and tbf archetypal) example, she's been most prominent in this thread.
It's not about women with a platform. It's about private school, oxbridge educated, middle-class people entirely dominating the platform and then representing themselves (or being represented as) the voice of the working class / voice of the generation or whatever. It's about how the elite reproduces itself through the structures of privilege embedded particularly within Oxbridge, how that affects the narrative/hegemony/discussion/whatever around politics, dissent, activism and so on.
Personally as someone who is a gnats whisker away from the same stuff - middle class, state school, rejected at interview from oxford PPE* but went to redbrick, Russell group Birmingham Uni instead which is equally concerned with the transmission of privilege - this thread has been really interesting for me to read as it's made me realise many things about my own privilege even though cos I never went into politics I've never really taken advantage of it.
I don't know about identity politics, I'm not going to take a position on that, but I find it sad that someone who is so concerned about privilege etc doesn't want to engage with a thread that has - amongst the abuse, the challenges to the abuse, the massive derails, the bunfights about the labour party and everything else - really taken an interesting look at the nature of privilege in the media and how it is transmitted, how the elite reproduces itself in a pretty much natural, unguided, structural manner.
*somewhere there is a nightmare parallel universe where I got accepted to Oxford and am now a scummy left of centre Lib Dem MP. Think Tim Farron or Vince Cable, not even the marginal integrity of Charles Kennedy to vote against the coalition. Sometime I hope to invent some kind of universe jumping machine and go and assassinate that version of me.
It's still a shame that she hasn't read the thread or is choosing to misrepresent what it is. For people coming here, it's worth having a look backwards from page 208 to find the cartoon that firky posted and read the thread's reaction to it (I don't know what page it was, I know Laurie came here on page 208 as a result of that cartoon). You could also search for a post by Articul8 about Deborah Orr, though I don't think he mentions her name, and then read through the ensuing bunfight as people call out and challenge his comment. There are plenty of examples of sexist/mysogynistic comments on this thread, those are the two I can remember. I'm confident that most if not all of the comments made have been challenged by multiple posters on this thread, as they generally are around the rest of the boards.
Even if we ignore the derails, a lot of this thread isn't about Laurie, but is about other people in similar positions of privilege - Ellie Mae O'Hagan, Sunny Hundal & Owen Jones spring to mind - but as Laurie is the most prominent (and tbf archetypal) example, she's been most prominent in this thread.
It's not about women with a platform. It's about private school, oxbridge educated, middle-class people entirely dominating the platform and then representing themselves (or being represented as) the voice of the working class / voice of the generation or whatever. It's about how the elite reproduces itself through the structures of privilege embedded particularly within Oxbridge, how that affects the narrative/hegemony/discussion/whatever around politics, dissent, activism and so on.
Personally as someone who is a gnats whisker away from the same stuff - middle class, state school, rejected at interview from oxford PPE* but went to redbrick, Russell group Birmingham Uni instead which is equally concerned with the transmission of privilege - this thread has been really interesting for me to read as it's made me realise many things about my own privilege even though cos I never went into politics I've never really taken advantage of it.
I don't know about identity politics, I'm not going to take a position on that, but I find it sad that someone who is so concerned about privilege etc doesn't want to engage with a thread that has - amongst the abuse, the challenges to the abuse, the massive derails, the bunfights about the labour party and everything else - really taken an interesting look at the nature of privilege in the media and how it is transmitted, how the elite reproduces itself in a pretty much natural, unguided, structural manner.
*somewhere there is a nightmare parallel universe where I got accepted to Oxford and am now a scummy left of centre Lib Dem MP. Think Tim Farron or Vince Cable, not even the marginal integrity of Charles Kennedy to vote against the coalition. Sometime I hope to invent some kind of universe jumping machine and go and assassinate that version of me.
Steel Icarus
we move
That's a great post Tom. And yeah, although she was possibly never going to engage with the serious thread running through the, um, thread, it has at least for me & I suspect most on here been very enlightening and informative on some of the reasons why there seem to be plenty of people with varying readerships queuing up to speak for and about us, but not so many to us, let alone from us.
stethoscope
Well-Known Member
It must be getting lonely up there for Penny on that plinth.
As if it even needs to be said, in an internet full of racist/sexist/homophobic and reactionary right-wing shite, urban is one of few places I've ever found myself at home. Like any forum, urban has a large membership and so there's always going to be dicks, but the culture here is that any such behaviour is overwhelmingly called out. For example, on my pet issue of trans related bigotry, I was really heartened recently to see so many people calling out some shit recently from a poster and action taken.
That should never be confused with what is robust discussion where all facets of politics, left or right are heavily analysed and critiqued. Whether its the proliferation of identity politics, the liberal left, shades of anarchism, the SWP or the IWCA, it's all for discussion here - but shouting down positions for them being racist/sexist/etc. (to those once involved in the AFA/RA of all people ffs!) without barely taking time to understand them, or just picking out certain things that have been said because they automatically suit personal/political prejudices (as Penny has done here imo) and then using that to refuse to actively engage with anything else that has been said is what has really riled here.
But its the use of their privilege that really gets peoples backs up, especially for those of us here, many who are engaged and have been engaged in all manner of grassroots working class and left activism. And one where those of us do so without enjoying the privileged platform of writing for, and being payrolled by left-leaning and national media outlets in which to do it.
Steel Icarus
we move
That's the difference between the "doing" left and the "so-called" left. THEY get things done.
- Status
Similar threads
