Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags

[Citizen66]

there's no such thing

I broke the mould. Mould as in, well, you know..

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

Where abouts?

Erm...Close to the river Tees. Work in Eston.

 

[Ronnie Rubashov]

More Southbank really

 

[chilango]

Worth highlighting this wot Laurie said...about us all.

"I think the way you've all collectively behaved on the urban75 thread is stunningly sexist, as well as racist in its blanket writing-off of 'identity politics"

 

[Firky]

Erm...Close to the river Tees. Work in Eston.

Southern puff.

 

[Citizen66]

Erm...Close to the river Tees. Work in Eston.

Nice one. I'm other side of the river.

 

[sihhi]

I think Laurie has gone:

Viewing thread Alex Callinicos/SWP vs Laurie Penny/New Statesman Facebook handbags, 6 minutes ago

and this sounds pretty final:

No, no chance at all- because I've addressed those issues already, in forums that aren't full of slander, misogyny, violent cartoons and disgusting personal abuse.

 

[tufty79]

I wonder if Nick Clegg will show up on the "Why the Lib Dems are Shit" thread?

he was in the audience* at glastonbury a couple of years for someone performing a poem entitled 'fuck you liberal democrats' - don't see why the internet should be any different

*strictly speaking, he was due on next. but watching from the sides with a cuppa beforehand

 

[Citizen66]

Southern puff.

 

[articul8]

the writer and I are actually engaged in a productive email discussion right now, he admits that some of what he said was wrong)

Who is that? Kenan Malik or an IWCA person?

call out those mistakes

Do you think you've made serious political mistakes, Laurie? Yay to UN air strikes for example?

 

[Citizen66]

I assumed she meant LD.

 

[radgiesteve]

Worth highlighting this wot Laurie said...about us all.

"I think the way you've all collectively behaved on the urban75 thread is stunningly sexist, as well as racist in its blanket writing-off of 'identity politics"

So now everyone's racist and sexist? Except for our saviour, the one who's busy 'doing' for a cushty fee. The silly cu*t [this post relates to sub-editing of course]

 

[articul8]

I assumed she meant LD.

will be interesting to hear his side of the exchange in that case

 

[sihhi]

Who is that? Kenan Malik or an IWCA person?



Do you think you've made serious political mistakes, Laurie? Yay to UN air strikes for example?

She's gone, mate, and is doing this instead:

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed
In the studio working, watching @dondlion and @sxipshirey make beautiful music. Really exciting!

http://www.dongodwin.net/ and http://www.sxipshirey.com/

 

[bluestreak]

No, no chance at all- because I've addressed those issues already, in forums that aren't full of slander, misogyny, violent cartoons and disgusting personal abuse.

oh ffs. do one, you liberal misery tourist.

 

[JimW]

will be interesting to hear his side of the exchange in that case

Just so long as the chairs are the same height.

 

[Dan U]

i've said fuck all sexist and nor have many, many posters and resent the idea that this thread is such. some daft things have been said at times but i can't recall anything that didn't really get pulled up on by someone at some stage.

on this basis Laurie Penny should stop engaging with twitter, pronto because that is chock full of actual hateful wankers.

i also think her proffered skype call should be a conference call. you can do that on googleplus for nowt. i'll facilitate.

 

[framed]

No, no chance at all- because I've addressed those issues already, in forums that aren't full of slander, misogyny, violent cartoons and disgusting personal abuse.

Allo Dave, I thought you'd gone for good, or was that just an empty threat?

While you're here, could you possibly point out, item by item, those posts which you consider to be "slander, misogyny... and disgusting personal abuse."

I'll give you the "violent cartoon", although we would call it 'funny' rather than violent. Given that the man being beaten up in the picture is indeed MALE and a natural redhead, while you are female and dare-I-say-it look like you're dyed in the head dept, I reckon you'd be hard pushed to make a case that this is indeed a caricature of your good self. Indeed, Dave Barnett is not even mentioned by name in the cartoon!

Thankfully, most on here seem to have avoided the obligatory 'humour bypass' operation that comes with revolutionary politics. On the evidence of your writing, however, it looks like you were probably fitted with the new humour bypass 'chip' at birth.

"Slander, misogyny... and disgusting personal abuse."

At least offer some evidence to substantiate your claims, please Dave.

 

[Citizen66]

She relates to and can show solidarity to the structural misogyny of working class single mothers consigned to living like hamsters on housing estates because her easy move from private school to Oxbridge to writing career has been questioned by men.

 

[articul8]

She's gone, mate, and is doing this instead:

Laurie Penny ‏@PennyRed
In the studio working, watching @dondlion and @sxipshirey make beautiful music. Really exciting!

http://www.dongodwin.net/ and http://www.sxipshirey.com/

she may come back though - not clear why Twitter is any less susceptible to racism and misogyny. In fact that's called out on here 99 times out of 100.

 

[articul8]

Just so long as the chairs are the same height.

they can all have fucking high chairs next time

 

[radgiesteve]

I hope you have a great Christmas. Really.

ya soft shite. Funny that you post that and all the while your avatar insists to her "I hate you"

 

[Firky]

She loves to mention she is working.

 

[framed]

She is an attention seeking child...

To engage with her is to indulge her.

 

[DotCommunist]

merry christmas everyone, we are all misogynist cunts except for spiney who is merely common and garden racist. Laura Pfennig has spoken.

 

[Blagsta]

In case you're all wondering, here's the letter I just sent in response to 'SpineyNorman' (I didn't want to reprint his letter without permission but I'm sure he can post it if he feels it's necessary.'

****

Hi there,
I must say, I find the tone of this email extremely different from the accusatory, jeering words you've flung at me in the past. It's surprising to me.
You say that you're angry about being called racist. Here are just some of the things you've said about me on Twitter this week:
'apropriating others oppression to ur own ends.'
'political naif'
"weak"

You've participated in a thread that contains, alongside ugly misogyny and threats of violence, the worst kinds of professional slander - that I lie, that I fabricate quotes and stories, that I bought my way into a job I don't deserve - none of which are remotely true. This sort of accusation has a real effect on my ability to do my job. You've encouraged and supported people who have written these things and perpetuated these lies. You seem so emotionally affected and full of rage about the way I reacted to your comments - perhaps that might give you some insight into how I feel every single day when I have to read these lies about me embedded in jeering sexist bullying. And then to have one of the bullies respond with legal threats, demands for attention and apology, when I react with anger, when I call out their unexamined privilege? That's bitterly ironic.

When you started trashing 'identity politics' and retweeted an article that contains, to my mind, the worst sort of left-flavoured unexamined white male privilege (the writer and I are actually engaged in a productive email discussion right now, he admits that some of what he said was wrong) I'm afraid I just lost my cool. I have no idea if you are, in your heart, a racist or a sexist - I'm sure you're a good person. It's actually interesting to know more about your life. All I had to go on before was a picture of Stalin and a Twitter feed full of hate. Now I feel I know you a bit more as an individual. Before you were just one of what looked like a faceless mass of haters spreading lies and threats.

Of course, I know that's not true - probably every one of you is an individual with your own history, your own challenges and secret hurts and triumphs, you've done campaigning work you're rightly proud of, you're a human being with a story. But heres the thing - so am I. You and everyone else on that thread have not treated me as such. Now you're asking that I behave in an empathetic way towards you, when your behaviour towards me has been the absolute opposite. You're asking that I treat you with politeness, respect and humanity, and sensitivity towards how a particular statement might affect your work, when you've shown me the opposite.
Like I say, I've got no idea if you're racist or sexist. I'm sure in your heart you are neither of these things. I have no way of knowing whether what you say about your years of anti-fascist work are true, but I have no reason to disbelieve you.

On the other hand, I think the way you've all collectively behaved on the urban75 thread is stunningly sexist, as well as racist in its blanket writing-off of 'identity politics'. I think your reaction to the issue of identity politics on Twitter was slightly racist. So yes, I apologise for accusing you, rather than your behaviour. I should have said 'that's a bit racist, maybe you want to think about that' rather than 'you are a racist.' I'm sure you'll agree that even those of us who work tirelessly for equality can sometimes make mistakes. I have, certainly, And if we're unable to call out those mistakes without freaking out and summoning the bloody lawyers, that's surely bad news for the left.

My calling out, however, was poorly phrased. When I wrote those tweets, I was angry, hurt, felt threatened and frightened. Perhaps this exchange will give you some insight into why I might have felt that way. I'm happy to clarify my response to your tweets on Twitter, but not because of your legal threats. You didn't need to threaten me to get me to apologise. All you needed to do, and this is very, very important, was treat me like a human being.

So here's what I propose: you give me a number I can call you on on the phone or a Skype account we can chat over (sorry, I'm unwilling to give out my private number in this situation), we arrange a time to talk, and we sit down wherever we are in the world and have a conversation - about our lives, about our politics, about what we can learn from each other and from this exchange. When that's done I'm more than happy to offer a retraction, if it's appropriate, and I'm sure it will be.

I look forward to hearing back from you,

Laurie.

it would be useful if you could say what, exactly, was racist about the article. Merely asserting it is, is not a reasoned argument. If you could show your working out, then maybe a debate could be had?

 

[Citizen66]

it would be useful if you could say what, exactly, was racist about the article. Merely asserting it is, is not a reasoned argument. If you could show your working out, then maybe a debate could be had?

We've just received a letter from the Queen, Blagsta. Don't spoil it.

 

[weepiper]

Nah...it's a well trodden path for liberal female journalists. It's what they do...there's always a 'motherhood' correspondent whose brief is: show us that your 'just like everyone else' while delighting us with your incisive and perceptive take on motherhood. See past issues of the Graun's for he past four decades.

That's not what your post read like. It read like 'this is what she should be doing'. If I misread it I apologise.

 

[sihhi]

that I lie, that I fabricate quotes and stories, that I bought my way into a job I don't deserve - none of which are remotely true.

We are

people who have written these things and perpetuated these lies.

to have one of the bullies respond with legal threats, demands for attention and apology, when I react with anger, when I call out their unexamined privilege? That's bitterly ironic.

When you started trashing 'identity politics' and retweeted an article that contains, to my mind, the worst sort of left-flavoured unexamined white male privilege

We might be

a faceless mass of haters spreading lies and threats.

given that spiney is one of that.

probably every one of you is an individual with your own history, your own challenges and secret hurts and triumphs, you've done campaigning work you're rightly proud of, you're a human being with a story. But heres the thing - so am I.

Own up which one of you has no history behind them.

I think the way you've all collectively behaved on the urban75 thread is stunningly sexist, as well as racist in its blanket writing-off of 'identity politics'.

I am a racist as is in no particular order: butchers, chilango, copliker, Citizen66, Spanky, angel, cesare, LLETSA, Dot, frogwoman, VP, lovedetective, 39S etc etc. BUT Are the 200,000 views of the thread who failed to spot it and challenge it also?

I am a racist and sexist.

 

[emanymton]

In case you're all wondering, here's the letter I just sent in response to 'SpineyNorman' (I didn't want to reprint his letter without permission but I'm sure he can post it if he feels it's necessary.'

Hi Laurie. Don't know if you are still reading but never mind, i'll post anyway.

As a reasonably prominent and well know female journalist, and one who writes from a radical angle, you will regularly be subject to vile misogynistic abuse. Frankly I would not even like to try and imagine some of what gets sent to you. I think very few if any of the people who contribute to this thread would disagree with that. Considering the nature of the cartoon which drew your attention to this thread I can however understand why you may have felt if was simply more of the same. And as this is the internet there is misogynistic crap on this thread, but it is routinely challenged, including that very cartoon. Others have suggested that you read over the entire thread, but I won't, this is a very long thread and trying to read it it all would be very, very dull and 90% of it would seem like pointless crap anyway.

I keep a casual eye on this thread, I certainly have not read the whole thing, and I agree with many but not all of the criticisms of your politics, but there is much on here that crosses a line into the personal that I don't feel very comfortable with. I would not expect you to suddenly fall in love with Urban or the posters on this thread. What I ask is that you try to keep a bit more of an open mind about the people on here. I can see why you may have reacted the way you did, but I think you have misinterpreted the nature of this thread.