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Al Qaeda a myth says Russian

Raisin D'etre said:
I think theres a debate going on about whether he was elected or not...
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either time!

...The hack that did work was unsophisticated enough that many high school students would be able to achieve it. This hack altered the election by 100,000 votes, leaving no trace at all in the central tabulator program. It did not appear in any audit log. The hack could have been executed in the November 2004 election by just one person.

This hack stunned the officials who were observing the test. It calls into question the results of as many as 40 million votes in 30 states...
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www.blackboxvoting.org
 
Raisin D'etre said:
I think theres a debate going on about whether he was elected or not...
Click to expand...
I was in New York at the time of the election. I didn't see much serious/credible debate going on about the overall validity of Bush's win even amongst the Kerry supporters I was with (I was DJing at what was supposed be an election celebration party!)

But are you saying you know better?
 
almeria said:
Leaders of...

mile and miles of dubious interpretations of complex events... blah blah blah

wars to maintain and expand the US empire during the end of the age of oil.
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I've never much liked Dutch anyway.

I think you need some help.

*Leaves thread*
 
editor said:
I was in New York at the time of the election. I didn't see much serious/credible debate going on about the overall validity of Bush's win even amongst the Kerry supporters I was with (I was DJing at what was supposed be an election celebration party!)

But are you saying you know better?
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That is surprising considering that there was very much vigourous debate on the internet amongst Americans and even here on Urban about whether Bush won.
As a journalist examining that messy sausage called American democracy, it's my job to tell you who got the most votes in the deciding states. Tuesday, in Ohio and New Mexico, it was John Kerry.

Most voters in Ohio thought they were voting for Kerry. At 1:05 a.m. Wednesday morning, CNN's exit poll showed Kerry beating Bush among Ohio women by 53 percent to 47 percent. The exit polls were later combined with—and therefore contaminated by—the tabulated results, ultimately becoming a mirror of the apparent actual vote. [To read about the skewing of exit polls to conform to official results, click here .] Kerry also defeated Bush among Ohio's male voters 51 percent to 49 percent. Unless a third gender voted in Ohio, Kerry took the state.

So what's going on here? Answer: the exit polls are accurate. Pollsters ask, "Who did you vote for?" Unfortunately, they don't ask the crucial, question, "Was your vote counted?" The voters don't know.

Here's why. Although the exit polls show that most voters in Ohio punched cards for Kerry-Edwards, thousands of these votes were simply not recorded. This was predictable and it was predicted. [See TomPaine.com, "An Election Spoiled Rotten," November 1.]
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Source
 
editor said:
I was in New York at the time of the election. I didn't see much serious/credible debate going on about the overall validity of Bush's win even amongst the Kerry supporters I was with (I was DJing at what was supposed be an election celebration party!)

But are you saying you know better?
Click to expand...

Are you kidding? There's a massive outcry in Florida, Ohio and NM about voting machines that were "full up," counted backwards and so on. Only affected Kerry votes mind you. Then it turned out that Diebold's prez had virtually promised Bush that the company would deliver the required result, back in the summer. It was a total fuckup. And the system runs on Microsoft Access believe it or not, and can be hacked by a ten-year-old.
 
editor said:
I was in New York at the time of the election. I didn't see much serious/credible debate going on about the overall validity of Bush's win even amongst the Kerry supporters I was with (I was DJing at what was supposed be an election celebration party!)

But are you saying you know better?
Click to expand...
Shouldn't we make our own minds up rather than following others?
 
almeria said:
Are you kidding? There's a massive outcry in Florida, Ohio and NM about voting machines that were "full up," counted backwards and so on. Only affected Kerry votes mind you. Then it turned out that Diebold's prez had virtually promised Bush that the company would deliver the required result, back in the summer. It was a total fuckup. And the system runs on Microsoft Access believe it or not, and can be hacked by a ten-year-old.
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Didn't really follow the allegations of fraud although I am aware there was some talk of it after the result was called.

When I was in California in late '03 though there was talk of how corrupt the voting machines would be and that the company making them were Republicans.
 
Raisin D'etre said:
That is surprising considering that there was very much vigourous debate on the internet amongst Americans and even here on Urban about whether Bush won.
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Any idea why Kerry didn't contest the results, then?

After all, he had more to lose than anyone else, so why wasn't he at the forefront of the people complaining?

Any ideas?

(I'm not saying that there weren't voting anomalies, mind, but I'm having trouble le buying into this "it's all part of the big conspiracy maaaaaan" stuff)
 
editor said:
Thank goodness Mr Picky Pedant is on hand to correct posts aimed at someone else.

:rolleyes:
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yeh, otherwise you'd have been wittering about orders for hours. :rolleyes:

it helps to read the posts, editor, as i'm sure you'd agree.
 
editor said:
Any idea why Kerry didn't contest the results, then?

After all, he had more to lose than anyone else, so why wasn't he at the forefront of the people complaining?

Any ideas?

(I'm not saying that there weren't voting anomalies, mind, but I'm having trouble le buying into this "it's all part of the big conspiracy maaaaaan" stuff)
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Why bring up Kerry and the elections then? You seem to think that he had something to do with the surplus that Bush injected into the military-industrial complex... How so? I don't see the connection myself.
 
slaar said:
*Leaves thread*
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Aw. Don't go, slaar. :(

I think almeria was trying to point out that in the history of entering/embarking upon large scale military actions, in every case (that I can think of, though please do correct me) the public consent for such action has been artificially manufactured in some way.

This has generally taken the form of provoking an attack and then allowing it to happen (Maine/Lusitania/Pearl Harbor) or deception (Tonkin/Glaspie/WMD's).

We get an insight into the processes at work by looking at the Northwoods documents, where we see the Joint Chiefs of Staff presenting options for staging an incident designed to mislead the people into supporting a war (in this case with Cuba).

Some may argue that the deceptions outlined in Northwoods are somehow 'not relevant' as they 'never happened'. It has been said that the very reason they 'never happened' ended up with his brains all over Jackie's lap not long after, but the point is that the various sick scenarios presented were seriously considered as viable options. Had they actually been carried out, I doubt we'd be able to read the discussion documents in the US National Archive.

It would appear there are no moral limitations when it comes to advancing the interests of the military-industrial complex.
 
Pickman's model said:
yeh, otherwise you'd have been wittering about orders for hours. :rolleyes:

it helps to read the posts, editor, as i'm sure you'd agree.
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Thank goodness for Hypocritical* Picky Pickman the Thread Diverter being on had to remind me to 'read the posts'!

What would I do without him?!

It's a good job that so few here are as tediously pedantic as you, otherwise we'd have hundreds of posts keenly correcting your stupid makey-uppey 'ck' ending words (e.g. 'pedantick').

Strange how your own errors don't bother you isn't it?

(*I recall Pickman's apologising for misreading one of my posts recently)
 
Raisin D'etre said:
Why bring up Kerry and the elections then? You seem to think that he had something to do with the surplus that Bush injected into the military-industrial complex... How so? I don't see the connection myself.
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Err, it wasn't me making claims about the elections being rigged.

Do you think they were rigged?
 
almeria said:
Are you kidding? There's a massive outcry in Florida, Ohio and NM about voting machines that were "full up," counted backwards and so on. Only affected Kerry votes mind you. Then it turned out that Diebold's prez had virtually promised Bush that the company would deliver the required result, back in the summer. It was a total fuckup. And the system runs on Microsoft Access believe it or not, and can be hacked by a ten-year-old.
Click to expand...

So why didn't kerry fight it?

He had tons of money and a legal team allready assembled?

He had no case and he knew it.
 
To be fair, there were a lot of Democrats complaining before and (directly) afterwards about vote-rigging, usually centred on the machine thing. However, basically, the country had mostly had enough of it the last time, the media weren't interested, and it would just have made Kerry look bitter if he'd complained, and damaged his chances for next time, so it's unsurprising he didn't bother.

Besides, even if there was some vote-rigging, it's hard to prove and opens up a can of worms if accusations are done on a party basis - the Democrats were engaged in dodgy business as well (some of the local things I heard in Philly to do with Nader were disgraceful) though they didn't have the incumbent status to really help them.

And while it's important to examine electronic voting and so on, the real influencing factor was the Bush administration's media machine and how they lied to and deceived the electorate. Propaganda is a much better weapon than vote fraud. There's only so many votes you can ever make up, whereas propaganda gets you whole states.
 
FridgeMagnet said:
To

And while it's important to examine electronic voting and so on, the real influencing factor was the Bush administration's media machine and how they lied to and deceived the electorate. Propaganda is a much better weapon than vote fraud. There's only so many votes you can ever make up, whereas propaganda gets you whole states.
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Your were doing well up to that point.

Survays have seen been done, and the media was overwelmingly supporting kerry. If we had tryed some shit like the democrats did with the C-BS dan rather faked documents, we wouln't have begun to get away with it......
 
pbman said:
Your were doing well up to that point.

Survays have seen been done, and the media was overwelmingly supporting kerry. If we had tryed some shit like the democrats did with the C-BS dan rather faked documents, we wouln't have begun to get away with it......
Click to expand...

Swift boats?
 
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