Al Qaeda a myth says Russian

[Raisin D'etre]

If you accept the official version of 911 which holds that Osama bin Laden conspired to have planes flown into the WTC and Pentagon and all because he hates American "freedom and democracy" then you are a conspiracy theorist! And seriously, it would be interesting to know who funds this site.

 

[editor]

And seriously, it would be interesting to know who funds this site.

Why? Why is it "interesting"? Please explain.

(whispers)

So who do you think might be funding the site?

Go on: I promise to tell you if you get it right!

Let's hear your suspicions and thoughts on the subject...

 

[Raisin D'etre]

Isnt this off topic? Who funds this site?

 

[editor]

Isnt this off topic? Who funds this site?

Err, you were the one who brought up the question about funding, not me!

You were also the one who claimed that "the myth of Al Qaeda being responsible for 911 is a fraudulent conspiracy theory promoted by corporate media shills, the USuk government" and, err, me!

So how about you explain what it is you're blabbering about?

Why would it be" interesting" to know who funds this site?

Please explain rather than wriggling. Thanks awfully.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Gosh, you know, if I was programming a West-hating muslim fanatic, I would think that sending them to Las Vegas with $unlimited for lapdancers might just, well, loosen the grip somewhat. But what would I know?

You'd know as little or as much as you choose to, Dr J. I thought that much was obvious.

As for "loosening the grip", Islam, along with the other "religions of the book" sets great store in the method of social control through guilt. We're all "policed", to a greater or lesser extent, through guilt and through fear of guilt. To set aside this fundamental point with a shrug of the shoulders and a "what do I know>?" is quite a comment on your open-mindedness IMHO.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Those 'round earth fanatics' were the "conspiraloons" of their day.

NO THEY WEREN'T! .

The FLAT-EARTH FANATICS were the CONSPIRALOONS of their day!

but nevertheless,

They talked utter shite, had an obsessive belief unsupported by facts and - like many a conspiraloon here - refused to acknowledge reality when science had disproved their fruitlooopery"

"Nice comparison. Spot on!"

Back to the thread.

In 'Al Qaeda', myth and fact appear to have been intentionally interwoven to support long-term strategies and political and commerical manouevres on the part of the USG/Pentagon.

 

[Jazzz]

You'd know as little or as much as you choose to, Dr J. I thought that much was obvious.

As for "loosening the grip", Islam, along with the other "religions of the book" sets great store in the method of social control through guilt. We're all "policed", to a greater or lesser extent, through guilt and through fear of guilt. To set aside this fundamental point with a shrug of the shoulders and a "what do I know>?" is quite a comment on your open-mindedness IMHO.

Do they have many lapdancing clubs in Islamic countries?

 

[ViolentPanda]

Do they have many lapdancing clubs in Islamic countries?

What is an "Islamic country"?

Are you talking about an "Islamic country" such as Iran, where the legal system is integrated with Islam, or an "Islamic country" such as Iraq, Algeria or Egypt where (although attention is paid to the sensibilities of Islam) the judicial system has a secular base? I ask because most "secular" Islamic countries have an "underground" of "outsider" culture, including drinking and "adult entertainment" clubs.

Seems to me you've fallen into the trap of buying into one set of explanations and have closed your mind off to anything that doesn't "fit".

Something you've castigated others (including the Ed) for doing, IIRC.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Back to the thread.

In 'Al Qaeda', myth and fact appear to have been intentionally interwoven to support long-term strategies and political and commerical manouevres on the part of the USG/Pentagon.

Yep, I see "a Q" as a sort of philosophical washing line onto which all sorts of disparate values and policies have been hung. They're a (post)modern-day equivalent of the "anarchist menace" of the Victorian era, used as a convenient excuse for repression of "foreigners", and of the "red scares" of the 1930s and 1950s, also used as a convenient excuse for extending social control and surveiilence.

That isn't to say that "a Q" don't exist, just that their mythic form may not correspond anywhere near closely to the actuality.

 

[Jazzz]

What is an "Islamic country"?

Are you talking about an "Islamic country" such as Iran, where the legal system is integrated with Islam, or an "Islamic country" such as Iraq, Algeria or Egypt where (although attention is paid to the sensibilities of Islam) the judicial system has a secular base? I ask because most "secular" Islamic countries have an "underground" of "outsider" culture, including drinking and "adult entertainment" clubs.

Seems to me you've fallen into the trap of buying into one set of explanations and have closed your mind off to anything that doesn't "fit".

Something you've castigated others (including the Ed) for doing, IIRC.

muslim fanatics going to lapdancing clubs... does it fit..? Christ, you couldn't make this shit up! I reckon if they all had bacon sarnies at the white house before boarding the planes you would find some way to excuse it

 

[bigfish]

muslim fanatics going to lapdancing clubs... does it fit..?

Only if you apply the magic "guilt" formula Doc. Once you understand how the guilt formula works, you can make anything fit anything else that you want. There was nothing unusual about Atta the "fanatic" visiting a lap-dancing club Doc, on the contrary, he simply went there to put himself in the right frame of mind for his mission. Now do you see?

 

[ViolentPanda]

muslim fanatics going to lapdancing clubs... does it fit..? Christ, you couldn't make this shit up! I reckon if they all had bacon sarnies at the white house before boarding the planes you would find some way to excuse it

So, what you're saying is that there is NO OTHER explanation other than the one you have settled on and that any other reasoning has no applicability or utility.

Excuse me if I think of you as a dogmatic arsehole. I used to have a little respect for your willingness to engage with "alternative explanations". As it is I see you've subsituted one set of official narratives of sept 11th for another.

Oh, and "Muslim fanatics"? I doubt a real "fanatic" (as in one committed to live their entire life according to the tenets of Islam) would have been able to interface quite so well as to cause little or no suspicion in "the west", even visiting a "lap-dancing club" would have been impossible for a true zealot, but would have provided good "cover" for an Islamist "sleeper". Still, as you will, Dr. J, you obviously know so much better (and have provided so much more evidence to back up your narrative) than anyone else.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Only if you apply the magic "guilt" formula Doc. Once you understand how the guilt formula works, you can make anything fit anything else that you want. There was nothing unusual about Atta the "fanatic" visiting a lap-dancing club Doc, on the contrary, he simply went there to put himself in the right frame of mind for his mission. Now do you see?

Don't be a tit. I'm not saying that what I've posited is the explanation, just an explanation. If you and the good Dr. can't actually get your heads around that particular point, then that's none of my fault.

 

[fela fan]

You claied that you were never going to post in world politics again. You claimed you were never going to bang on about 9/11 again etc etc

This has been pointed out to you by several posters.

You keep on spouting this line, even when i point out it's not true. I'll point it out again: i said i was taking a break from both the topic and the forum.

 

[editor]

Do they have many lapdancing clubs in Islamic countries?

Mind you, if they were looking for a cover story and to remove suspicions that they were terrorists, what better way than to go to Vegas!!

It clearly would have fooled you!

 

[editor]

You keep on spouting this line, even when i point out it's not true. I'll point it out again: i said i was taking a break from both the topic and the forum.

Ah. You're back!

Let's talk about your claim that I am "increasingly ready to ban those that have the wrong opinion", adding that my behaviour was "scary" and "perhaps reflective of the current Britain, the Blair Britain".

Heavy accusations indeed!

Seeing as we need to sort this out for fear of open debate being suppressed, it's time for you to back them up.

So who's been banned by the beastly editor just for expressing the wrong opinion?

To help you out, I've compiled a list ready for you:

PEOPLE BANNED BY THE EDITOR IN THE LAST MONTH FOR HAVING THE 'WRONG OPINION':

1.......................
2.......................
3.......................
4.......................
5........................

 

[slaar]

Playing away: the hidden Asian sex trade

Do they have many lapdancing clubs in Islamic countries?

Search on The Times website for "Mujra" to get some very recent stuff related to this (last week in fact).

Pakistan is an Islamic state where sex outside marriage is officially a crime, which means that these “mujra”, or courtesan, clubs provide a rare and tantalising insight into a diverse subculture beyond the usual pious clichés and patronising assumptions about the influence of the fundamentalist minority. The mujra tradition has existed in the sub-continent for centuries; and now it has been transported over here.

So far, very few white Britons are aware that, along with the arrival of the curry houses that so transformed this country’s tastebuds in the late Sixties and early Seventies, came another, more underground, import from Pakistan which catered for certain sexual needs in the immigrant population. During the Eid festival which marks the end of Ramadan fasting, Asian men will often visit such places for a lads’ night out.

The problem of Asian women being involved in prostitution is far more hidden than other types of sex industry or trafficking. Maybe it’s because there are fewer or because it’s extremely shameful in most Asian communities, so the women are extra-vigilant in keeping quiet about it because it brings so much dishonour to the family.

“These brothels are very discreet and haven’t got into the sauna business yet, as other prostitution networks have. But it’s rubbish to say that all Muslims have higher sexual morals than white Britons. It’s like any community, any religion — you have people with high moral standards who live by them, but you also have plenty of people who are hypocrites.

If this recent story in The Times, linked to a new play about the state of hidden Asian sex shows in the UK is anything to go by I should think it's pretty likely.

 

[editor]

And seriously, it would be interesting to know who funds this site.

Still waiting for an explanation - and a point - to the comment that it would be "interesting to know who funds this site".

Seriously.

 

[Raisin D'etre]

And Im still waiting for you to make a point in this thread which aims not to antagonize or stupefy.

 

[editor]

And Im still waiting for you to make a point in this thread which aims not to antagonize or stupefy.

You raised the subject - not me - so why are you now refusing to discuss it?

Please explain why it would be "seriously" interesting "to know who funds this site".

And need I remind you of your earlier gibberish posts in this thread?
Pot. Kettle. Beyond black.

 

[fubert]

I shall change my tagline!

fuck it. if you can't beat them

 

[ViolentPanda]

Search on The Times website for "Mujra" to get some very recent stuff related to this (last week in fact).




If this recent story in The Times, linked to a new play about the state of hidden Asian sex shows in the UK is anything to go by I should think it's pretty likely.

Yes, but it doesn't fit with Dr. J's pet set of theories, so it has to be disregarded or labelled as being "propaganda", don't you see?

 

[slaar]

Well, the obvious counterargument is that the guys who flew the planes into the WTC and Pentagon were fundamentalist and so wouldn't have gone to the brothels. I don't buy that at all, they're just as likely to have been fallible human beings wanting a quick bit of titilation as anyone else.

 

[invisibleplanet]

Search on The Times website for "Mujra" to get some very recent stuff related to this (last week in fact).




If this recent story in The Times, linked to a new play about the state of hidden Asian sex shows in the UK is anything to go by I should think it's pretty likely.

For goodness sake, when the Brits invaded Afghanistan in the 19th Century, the brothels became highly important in ensuring that Afghani military commanders had a meeting place to discuss tactics behind closed doors. India had legal (ie taxed) 'brothels' in the form of one-stop sex temples specifically for that purpose only.

Brothels and sex-shows have always been found in cultures where clothing is worn for 'moral purposes'

 

[slaar]

Well, quite, that was what I was pointing out.

 

[ViolentPanda]

Well, the obvious counterargument is that the guys who flew the planes into the WTC and Pentagon were fundamentalist and so wouldn't have gone to the brothels. I don't buy that at all, they're just as likely to have been fallible human beings wanting a quick bit of titilation as anyone else.

Yep.
Part of the point I was trying to make earlier is that a true fundamentalist would have had great difficulty in supressing their disgust at encountering examples of "western decadence", which is why I tend to see the bombers as your usual indoctrinated soldier-types going on a dangerous mission from which they knew they probably wouldn't return. The psychology of a soldier appears to me to fit better with some of the known behaviours and relationships of the hijackers.

 

[almeria]

Hang on a minute. Just who are these supposed bombers? If you mean the 19 invisible 9/11 hijackers, six of whom later turned up alive and well, who weren't on any planes and didn't show up on any passenger lists, then I think you have some explaining to do.

 

[editor]

Hang on a minute. Just who are these supposed bombers? If you mean the 19 invisible 9/11 hijackers, six of whom later turned up alive and well, who weren't on any planes and didn't show up on any passenger lists, then I think you have some explaining to do.

Shall we have this debate all over again for what feels like the zillioneth time?

No. Let's not.

 

[Backatcha Bandit]

"Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to (an authority) and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity."

George Orwell: Nineteen Eighty-Four.

 

[ViolentPanda]

"Crimestop means the faculty of stopping short, as though by instinct, at the threshold of any dangerous thought. It includes the power of not grasping analogies, of failing to perceive logical errors, of misunderstanding the simplest arguments if they are inimical to (an authority) and of being bored or repelled by any train of thought which is capable of leading in a heretical direction. Crimestop, in short, means protective stupidity."

George Orwell: Nineteen Eighty-Four.

It's a well-known (by another name, which escapes me at the moment) psychological phenomenon mentioned in research about "denial". Everyone experiences cognitive dissonance between what they know and what the state tells them. The state knows this and the propagands shape their product accordingly, so as to sooth that dissonance.
Rationally, one has to assume that a percentage of "conspiracy theories" are genuine "alternative" information, and that a percentage will be institutionally-generated to act as diversions. This is also doubtless played on by the establishment's propagandists.
In effect, we can never be sure that we have the "absolute truth" about a given event or situation, we can only do our best to keep our minds open and our bullshit filters switched on. That means not discarding any possibility until you're personally satisfied as to its worth (or lack thereof).
You can't ask people to do any more than that. Slating them for not accomodating someone's personal theory is pointless.