9/11 media happenings

[fela fan]

Sure you have.

And your evidence is what, exactly?

Do you EVER change your record?

As you well know i don't have any evidence, this is a debating board man, a debating board man, a debating board man, not a court, not a court, not a court man.

But in any case, down the years i from time to time post up a link to the cooperativeresearch website that has various timelines of the events that day, and leading up to that day, including going back several years that place the geopolitical context that 911 took place in.

And it always satisfied your demands for mainstream sources, but curiously the least you've ever done with this link is ignore it, and the most is to instantly wipe the thread from the boards.

So editor, no evidence, but a bloody good link for people to better inform themselves of.

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I've looked at your link fela, although not had a chance to read it through in any detail yet. From what I can see it's a timeline of events surrounding 9/11, how is this in any way evidence for CD/invisible planes etc?

 

[fela fan]

I've looked at your link fela, although not had a chance to read it through in any detail yet. From what I can see it's a timeline of events surrounding 9/11, how is this in any way evidence for CD/invisible planes etc?

Mate, it isn't any evidence for anything, certainly not invisible planes or whatever, something i've no interest in. I'm not really interested in any conspiracy theory to be honest, i don't like such guessing to mainstay my beliefs in life.

I make my case for mihop based on the intelligence i've read, my understandings of those in power, all my readings down the years, not just of politics, but pychology, power relations and other related genres. Another basis for me is that the US is the empire, and i simply look at their record of death and destruction, and the absolute millions of people they've killed. The conjecture that they would never kill their own doesn't sit with me mate.

Well, actually, i don't really make a case, i just like to express my beliefs that the US made the thing happen. Over the time i've provided links, especially the cooperativeresearch one.

I recommend you spend some good time on it. It will take a good amount of time, but if you're motivated enough you'll enjoy the read. I'd particularly recommend the timeline that goes back to the 70s that helps explain the geopolitical context of the times that we live in.

[incidentally, none of us have proof of anything, no evidence at all. If we did, folk would be getting prosecuted for incompetence or premeditated murder]

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I make my case for mihop based on the intelligence i've read, my understandings of those in power, all my readings down the years, not just of politics, but pychology, power relations and other related genres. Another basis for me is that the US is the empire, and i simply look at their record of death and destruction, and the absolute millions of people they've killed. The conjecture that they would never kill their own doesn't sit with me mate.

OK, let's assume that the US MIHOP, for whatever reasons you care to believe.

If they made it happen, they must have had a mechanism for making it happen - which was what exactly? If you argue that the mechanism was one or two people ignoring intellegence about an attack I might be able to keep up with you (although that would be LIHOP), it's when you get all the wild CD/invisible plane theories coming in that I run out of patience.

 

[fela fan]

A lot easier to believe as true than planes with missiles, no?

Not for me mate. No. And i don't think either way regarding missiles.

I'd like to reiterate that anyone who spends a few hours reading up on the timelines on cooperativeresearch would find it difficult to continue accepting the staggering incompetence version of events.

Shit man, they were virtually informed that tall buildings were going to be attacked on american soil, and in the month that it happened.

They ignored that????? Well, yes they did! That's how the attacks took place.

And no, i don't buy the shit that they were suffering from intelligence fatigue either.

It is based on the intelligence i've read, allied to their foreign policy actions and objectives that i firmly accept mihop for my own personal mind. Being not a quiet bastard in life, i speak out on this forum about it.

As for the websites out there with conspiracy and counter conspiracy, i've little time for them. It's like a whirlpool that never ends, and you just can't get anywhere...

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

They ignored that????? Well, yes they did! That's how the attacks took place.

Wouldn't that be LIHOP, rather than MIHOP?

 

[pk]

 

[WouldBe]

Shit man, they were virtually informed that tall buildings were going to be attacked on american soil, and in the month that it happened.

It's easier to hit tall buildings. Less chance of ploughing into the ground.

 

[kyser_soze]

I'd like to reiterate that anyone who spends a few hours reading up on the timelines on cooperativeresearch would find it difficult to continue accepting the staggering incompetence version of events.

Shit man, they were virtually informed that tall buildings were going to be attacked on american soil, and in the month that it happened.

They ignored that????? Well, yes they did! That's how the attacks took place.

And no, i don't buy the shit that they were suffering from intelligence fatigue either.

You've misread my post - I'm not saying it was incompetence or intel fatigue, it was that the information provided by Tenet and others did not square with the geopolitical outlook and threat assessment thinking of Condi and the Bush administration. So it's not even incompetence that caused it, it was taken as a decision based on the viewpoint, prejudices and opinions of those who made the decisions.

You know, how if someone you disagree with and have little respect for comes up to you and tells you that something will happen that will be really bad in your life, that they're as sure as they can get, and you still ignore them. Just because one is personal and the other political doesn't change the way you'd react.

 

[pk]

I love it.

There's a conspiracy to fly two fully fueled airliners into the WTC, and someone says "hey, wait a minute, we'd better strap a missile onto the front of them just in case the resultant fire isn't big enough".

If it wasn't so funny it would be rather sad.

I still think all this is a result of dodgy medication Jazzz is on for his chronic fatigue syndrome.

 

[fela fan]

OK, let's assume that the US MIHOP, for whatever reasons you care to believe.

If they made it happen, they must have had a mechanism for making it happen - which was what exactly? If you argue that the mechanism was one or two people ignoring intellegence about an attack I might be able to keep up with you (although that would be LIHOP), it's when you get all the wild CD/invisible plane theories coming in that I run out of patience.

For the reasons i've just stated i fully accept in my own personal mind that mihop is the case. As for the things that make you run out of patience i really don't know about them.

If i don't run out of internet time tonight (i'm on a sort of weekly charge at the minute) i will try and find the best timeline for you from that website. But from memory you need to look at the geopolitics.

But you also need to read up on PNAC. Now, it seems more than plausible that those who created its mission statement could have set in motion the events, probably a few years before. That would only be a small group of americans. American agents in the field, ie pakistan, afghanistan, saudi (and of course being of those nationalities) would then have set in motion the idea amongst muslim extremists/terrorists.

And they themselves have strong links to american foreign policy actions from years ago.

Please understand that i did all this research a few years ago now, and am operating purely from memory. I get a few specific details wrong, but if you can accept the general picture bees, then i suggest doing a big more research of your own, and a bit less getting angry on urban...!

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

I see where you're going with this, and while I don't agree with you (I think the US is perfectly capable of having people want to attack them without them having to plant the idea themselves), it's at least grounded in some sort of reality and consistancy, as opposed to the fantasy world Jazzz is living in.

 

[fela fan]

Wouldn't that be LIHOP, rather than MIHOP?

It doesn't depend on that. It really depends on who came up with the plan in the first place. I believe members of PNAC came up with the plan, and that means that it's mihop.

The trouble with lihop is that it really would need an awful amount of people to be in on the secret, and surely someone would have whistleblown by now, even at the serious risk of being bumped off.

Mihop only needed a few americans to be involved. And if they were all pretty deluded, brainwashed, mad as you need to be to kill off millions of people and endorse things like torture, then why would any of them have suddenly developed a conscience?

 

[kyser_soze]

It is based on the intelligence i've read, allied to their foreign policy actions and objectives that i firmly accept mihop for my own personal mind. Being not a quiet bastard in life, i speak out on this forum about it.[/quote[

Hmm, worth bearing in mind that the first year of the Bush administration was more marked by it's unilateralism then anything else, that the Iraq plan was already formenting (and had been since Daddy Bush lost to Clinton).

What's interesting about your post is that you bang on about America this, and America that and how terrible they were etc, and at NO POINT do you stop and say 'Well yes, this could have given someone somewhere a motivation to attack the US'. You also ignore completely the fact that Islamic militancy, as epiomised by Al-Q but generally far, far less visible was a global force with it's own aims and ambitions for anyone who wouldn't submit to the will of Allah.

I mean fuck me, everyone bangs on about PNAC and yet the Koran makes it's ambitions for a global Umma explicit, and what should happen to those who defy it. When was the last time you considered that?

At the end of the day tho, you are right - there isn't enough evidence either way to say for sure, altho I personally think that if ignoring Tenet's warning could be proven Bush could be open to charges of failing to defend the US.

But a big conspiracy from the US? Nah, the Islamics are smart enough to do all that themselves...

 

[kyser_soze]

I believe members of PNAC came up with the plan, and that means that it's mihop.

Why/ What makes you SO SURE that a bunch of people who had been banging on about hating the US for about 15 years wouldn't plan it? Is it racism? Is it Jazz' point about how he didn't think 'the cavemen' could plan it?

 

[fela fan]

I see where you're going with this, and while I don't agree with you (I think the US is perfectly capable of having people want to attack them without them having to plant the idea themselves), it's at least grounded in some sort of reality and consistancy, as opposed to the fantasy world Jazzz is living in.

There are many many people happy to attack america for the crimes of its foreign policies down the years, and all over the globe.

What needs to be asked is how complicit those in power in the US have been in helping create these 'enemies'. For it's a taken (i would think for any political observer) that those with the most power have to do bad things in order to retain and expand that power.

That's why i recommend the timeline that starts in the 70s, and to read up on PNAC.

 

[fela fan]

Why/ What makes you SO SURE that a bunch of people who had been banging on about hating the US for about 15 years wouldn't plan it? Is it racism? Is it Jazz' point about how he didn't think 'the cavemen' could plan it?

I said 'I believe', and you come up with SO SURE. They don't match kyser.

There's no need to bring racism into it. I'm so unracist that i don't even think in terms of race most of the time.

Have you considered the possiblity that the plan emanated from PNAC members, yet those who carried out the attacks also thought that they planned it?

 

[beesonthewhatnow]

Have you considered the possiblity that the plan emanated from PNAC members, yet those who carried out the attacks also thought that they planned it?

But is it really so impossible that those people came up with the plan themselves?

 

[Crispy]

I said 'I believe', and you come up with SO SURE. They don't match kyser.

There's no need to bring racism into it. I'm so unracist that i don't even think in terms of race most of the time.

Have you considered the possiblity that the plan emanated from PNAC members, yet those who carried out the attacks also thought that they planned it?

That's certainly possible. In fact it's a damn sight more likely than many of the other theories on this thread. In some ways, it doesn't even matter. If there are 'bad guys' willing and able to carry out this sort of attack, and all it took was a little 'prodding' from the CIA or whoever, then said bad guys probably could have done something similar off their own backs. Maybe not exactly the same plan, but they had the motive and the means are easy to come by, so an attack was going to come anyway.

 

[fela fan]

What's interesting about your post is that you bang on about America this, and America that and how terrible they were etc, and at NO POINT do you stop and say 'Well yes, this could have given someone somewhere a motivation to attack the US'. You also ignore completely the fact that Islamic militancy, as epiomised by Al-Q but generally far, far less visible was a global force with it's own aims and ambitions for anyone who wouldn't submit to the will of Allah.

I mean fuck me, everyone bangs on about PNAC and yet the Koran makes it's ambitions for a global Umma explicit, and what should happen to those who defy it. When was the last time you considered that?

At the end of the day tho, you are right - there isn't enough evidence either way to say for sure, altho I personally think that if ignoring Tenet's warning could be proven Bush could be open to charges of failing to defend the US.

But a big conspiracy from the US? Nah, the Islamics are smart enough to do all that themselves...

So kyser, would you like to tell me when islamic terrorism began to show its face? Does the koran say that explicitly? I understood it was only people interpreting it that say this. And if i'm wrong, then hey, the bloody koran's been around a fucking long time. Where was all their terrorism before?

My beliefs about what happen include the fact that loads of people who can be described as islamic carried out the attacks. I think you just jump to conclusions somewhat quickly mate.

But who and what created those terrorists?

 

[fela fan]

That's certainly possible. In fact it's a damn sight more likely than many of the other theories on this thread. In some ways, it doesn't even matter. If there are 'bad guys' willing and able to carry out this sort of attack, and all it took was a little 'prodding' from the CIA or whoever, then said bad guys probably could have done something similar off their own backs. Maybe not exactly the same plan, but they had the motive and the means are easy to come by, so an attack was going to come anyway.

Yes, true, but then comes all that incomptence and strange behaviour on the day. Almost as if someone was making it as easy as possible to not let the hijackers get thwarted. Loads of things had to go wrong in order for them to attain their objectives.

And then what about the drills going on that morning for just such an event? Did that take away key personnel from making key decisions?

It would be interesting to find out who organised the drills for that very morning. But these questions of course are what the mainstream media are supposed to be asking...

 

[fela fan]

But is it really so impossible that those people came up with the plan themselves?

Not at all mate. They very well could have done. Remembering what i've said about all that intelligence, we would then have to conclude lihop.

But for me that means many more americans having to commit mass-murder against their fellow countrymen, and i can't buy that.

Either way, i believe that even if it is lihop, then we still need to investigate the whole event. It was a world-stopping event, and for me i intensely dislike the american model for life that is being foisted on the planet. If what i believe is true, and evidence comes out, then the world stops, takes stock, and changes its course. Away from this rampant consumerism that is so anti the human soul. The politics by which we run ourselves would have to change for the better.

 

[kyser_soze]

So kyser, would you like to tell me when islamic terrorism began to show its face? Does the koran say that explicitly? I understood it was only people interpreting it that say this. And if i'm wrong, then hey, the bloody koran's been around a fucking long time. Where was all their terrorism before?

My beliefs about what happen include the fact that loads of people who can be described as islamic carried out the attacks. I think you just jump to conclusions somewhat quickly mate.

But who and what created those terrorists?

I'm going to take the point about the Koran as separate from the emergence of contemporary Islamic militancy.

Early 1990s, just as Afghanistan was falling apart and the Taliban managed to get a foothold on a whole country to play with and with the financial backing of disaffected rich Saudis like OBL, were able to start to realise their own version of PNAC - PNIC you could say - that involved installing hardline Islamic governments where they could (as evidence by the problems in the Horn of Africa, Luxor Massacre etc). I know you're going to say 'America created the terrorists' and in some respects it did - it armed them when it was useful to do so (when fighting the Russians) and used them as a proxy force.

But this was an unintended consequence of behaviour, not a deliberate plan - funnily enough, some have argued that the Harvard/Yale educated types at the CIA did view OBL and his mates as a bunch of unsophisticated cavemen - which is what you're implying.

WRT to the teachings of the Koran, it explicitly states that it is the duty of Muslims to seek converts and to encourage converts, and while the precise quotes elude me at present (they were on another thread recently), it's not 'interpretation' of the Koran that's the problem.

So in answer to your question, the terrorists created themselves. Western liberals like to think in good guy/bad guy terms when discussing US influence over events, and rarely if ever give any consideration to the fact that others out there in the world have their own ambitions - which is exactly what you've done.

 

[fela fan]

bees...

Here’s the main link again.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project

Here’s the timeline that starts in 1979, giving you the historical context leading up to the attacks. In particular pay attention to anything you read on/by brzezinski.

“President Carter authorizes covert aid for anti-Soviet forces in Afghanistan. According to his National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski, this was part of a deliberate policy to inflame militant Islamic fundamentalism in the region with the aim of forcing the Soviets to invade.”

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/...=complete_911_timeline&timeperiod=1979 - 2000

And for the timeline that includes so much intelligence and background info, go to the following link. You really will need a couple of hours, but for anyone interested in knowing more about 911, it’s a very interesting read.

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&before_9/11=warnings

No more! I’m not on broadband at the moment, and my patience is wearing thin. But take your pick from any of the timelines on the first link.

 

[fela fan]

But this was an unintended consequence of behaviour, not a deliberate plan - funnily enough, some have argued that the Harvard/Yale educated types at the CIA did view OBL and his mates as a bunch of unsophisticated cavemen - which is what you're implying.

WRT to the teachings of the Koran, it explicitly states that it is the duty of Muslims to seek converts and to encourage converts, and while the precise quotes elude me at present (they were on another thread recently), it's not 'interpretation' of the Koran that's the problem.

Look mate, you so frequently mix up imply and interpret. I'm not in any way implying anybody was a caveman.

Now what you say about the koran here exactly applies to christians and their actions. They're rife in this part of the world attempting to change people's religions. And they're all american.

Often you appear to me to have some pretty good knowledge about events in history, more than me, but you undo it by seriously misreading things into what i'm saying, and even worse, on things i don't say.

 

[editor]

As you well know i don't have any evidence, this is a debating board man, a debating board man, a debating board man, not a court, not a court, not a court man.

Good grief. Pull yourself together and stop babbling like a demented fool.

 

[Techno303]

Often you appear to me to have some pretty good knowledge about events in history, more than me, but you undo it by seriously misreading things into what i'm saying, and even worse, on things i don't say.

Er, how can that affect his knowledege of history, which you admit is better than yours?

 

[editor]

Mihop only needed a few americans to be involved.

No, it wouldn't, because for everyone involved and trying to keep it secret there'd be an army of people outside the Big Secret spotting that something was not right.

 

[fela fan]

bees...

This is the one link you might give time to to test out whether you want to go down this route. I've been rereading about the intelligence leading up to 911, so here it is:

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/..._9/11=warnings&timeline=complete_911_timeline

It's page 3 of the complete timeline.

 

[fela fan]

No, it wouldn't, because for everyone involved and trying to keep it secret there'd be an army of people outside the Big Secret spotting that something was not right.

Pure conjecture.

You yourself have argued that incompetence accounts for the events that september morning. It of course was very helpful to the hijackers that those drills were going on that morning too...

So, as you can see, once the attacks were underway, incompetence took over, no army of people spotting things were not right, just being incompetent. That's what you've said. Incompetence.

Which helped those who organised the orginal plan, and that would only need a few people, maybe half a dozen, a dozen.

Why don't you acquaint yourself with some of the intelligence that the likes of rice, ashcroft, rumsfeld were getting? Just click on the link i've just this minute provided for bees.