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9/11 media happenings

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fela fan said:
Just tell all the folks at home that we had too much of it, and hindsight is always easy.
So lets see ... you spend hours/days/weeks/months, even fucking years jumping up and down demanding the "truth" ... and then, when it's right there in front of you, you fail to recognise it ... :rolleyes:

Based on what you (believe you) know about what was known PRE-attack, what, exactly, would you have done?

And how, exactly, would you have squared that with the liberty and freedoms that you are so keen to protect?
 
fela fan said:
So, let me get this clear then: the americans set up all these agencies with the specific objective of gathering intelligence to in effect defend the nation against potential forthcoming attacks. The americans, in addition to their own, also gain further intelligence from friendly nations and their very own intelligence gathering.

And yet when they get this intelligence, they, er... er, IGNORE IT. Wow, that's a cunning kind of operation they're involved in. Spend heaps of money, get loads of information, and then simply ignore it. Set up your own agencies, enlist the help of other agencies in other nations, do all you can to obtain information deemed to be useful in combatting attacks on the state nation of the US, and then just ignore it all.

Just tell all the folks at home that we had too much of it, and hindsight is always easy.

And you go on about conspiracy theorists just picking up on whatever backs up their pre-determined position. What about you, saying that the intelligence was of no use because we just had too much of it.

That is one big hoot mate. You don't want to look at the intelligence aspect of this story, because it will undermine your whole position on this subject. So you pass it off as hindsight being easy, and there being too much of the intelligence.

Who's got their ears and eyes shut eh?
You really haven't got a fucking clue.
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
You really haven't got a fucking clue.

Aye, it was the thread on Echelon that really brought home Fela's detachment from reality. In Fela's eye it was a near all-encompassing surveillance system that could listen in to all our conversations and pick out 'thoughtcrime' in snippets, allowing the authorities to respond quickly. When the physical/technical limitations of such an approach were patiently pointed out to Fela it was like telling a child that (the evil conspiratorial, reptile bastard child of...) Santa Claus doesn't really exist.

It's quite easy to collect lots of information, but it's a fuck of a lot harder to appraise and interpret it quickly.
 
tarannau said:
It's quite easy to collect lots of information, but it's a fuck of a lot harder to appraise and interpret it quickly.
Never mind the fact that several key people simply didn't believe in that sort of threat and were still stuck in the cold war.
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
Never mind the fact that several key people simply didn't believe in that sort of threat and were still stuck in the cold war.

Well perhaps thats true Bees. But Bin laden was of Americas biggest enemies for years. He was notorious, not the extent he is now of course, but I remember growing up in the 90s hearing loads about him. He was very active indeed. Even striking the US.

Of course you know this, but it is worth making the point that if the Neo Con administration told CIA to concentrate on Russia, and reduce surveillance on Al-Quada, then this is in the very least pathetically incompetent, and possibly more.
 
Incidently here is his wanted sheet from the FBI.

It seems the FBI is reticent to declare his responsibility for 911.

I think a proper investigation needs to be done. I quote Charlie Sheen here, not because I think his high profile lends credence to any conspiracy theories, but he articulates this point well about the need for a real investigation.

'I still firmly believe the citizens of this great country, especially the family members of those tragically lost, deserve a much more accurate and thorough investigation surrounding the horrific events.

The suspicious fact that certain relevant testimonies were not included in the Keen Commission's final report, discredits the majority of their findings. A bi-partisan, democratically selected panel needs to be established that would include (but not limited to), victim family members, firefighters, rescue workers as well as key eye witnesses to the various crime scenes. Not some tepid rehash of Bush-serving lap-dogs cherry picking evidence to support erroneous and fictional "Magic Bullet" explanations.

We will not tolerate any testimony behind closed doors from subjects not placed "Under Oath". We will not tolerate the real and hard questions being dismissed for reasons of "National Security". We will not tolerate our freedom of speech being dismantled and ignored as not to "Disrespect the deceased".'
 
And what then happens when this bi-partisan committee has overturned every stone, uncovered every worm, possibly ended long term intelligence gathering operations, followed every paper lead possible, and it STILL finds that there was no 'conspiracy'? That the decision making process leading up to the events of 9/11 was flawed, but that ultimately even within genuine police states if someone wants to commit a terrorist act they can and will, given time and resources?

I agree completely that there should be an in-depth committee that sticks to those guidelines laid down - I and just about everyone else on here has never said that there should be anything else, but do you actually want a committee that might come back with something that doesn't blame a single individual, or organisation, but comes back with a story of politics and incompetence?

Well perhaps thats true Bees. But Bin laden was of Americas biggest enemies for years. He was notorious, not the extent he is now of course, but I remember growing up in the 90s hearing loads about him. He was very active indeed. Even striking the US.

Of course you know this, but it is worth making the point that if the Neo Con administration told CIA to concentrate on Russia, and reduce surveillance on Al-Quada, then this is in the very least pathetically incompetent, and possibly more.

Well competence is not something that one has come to associate with this administration, but even within the intelligence community there will always be debate over who presents the primary threat. Given the way Russia is now using natural resource as an extentsion of foreign policy, arguably Rice's POV that Russia was still a bigger player is correct - hell, if the US had just left it's adventurism at Afghanistan OBL, AL-Q and the rest of them wouldn't be the global issue they are today.

Under Bush Snr, Russia and the Colombian drug cartels were bad guys no. 1. Under Clinton it was whomever he thought might present a threat that week until the WTC bombing - indeed, at one point it seemed that internal threats were likely to be more of an issue (Oaklahoma, the backlash from the mis-handling of Waco).

At the end of the day intelligence is about making a call on what to act on and what not, and in a governmental system that has agencies with overlapping responsibilities, conflicts of both personality and policy and many roles staffed by political appointees the processes behind making those decisions will never simple or transparent, unless you can find a good telepath anyway.
 
fela fan said:
And why, when they have gathered an inordinate amount in the months, weeks, and days leading up to the attacks, do they then go and ignore it?

If I were to mention 'bomb plot' on this thread it may be picked up by an automated intelligence system. This would result in 33,500 (number of time this thread has been viewed) flags on the system all of which need to be followed up by some agency. This all takes time. Of course this thread will already have been picked up by the mention of explosives and WTC in close proximity, as will all the other threads on this and other boards.

If we give this 'bomb plot' a code name then someone need to have read the thread to link the plot with the code name and then set the system up to monitor the net for the code name being used which generates even more flags to be followed up on. So some poor sod in an intelligence agency somewhere spends days or even weeks tracking all this information and reading it in context just to find out it's a bunch of conspiraloons debating what may or have happened.

Yet somehow you expect this to be nearly instantaneous. :D
 
kyser_soze said:
I agree completely that there should be an in-depth committee that sticks to those guidelines laid down - I and just about everyone else on here has never said that there should be anything else...

Where in agreement there then. I hope it comes about.
 
Jazzz said:
You not heard of Sibel Edmonds WouldBe?
Interesting. But...

1. It took her months to go through the information which just shows how long it can take to follow up on info received.

2. She was working with hindsight.

3. Just because the FBI were working slow to get more funding doesn't mean the government were in on the 911 attacks.
 
Whistleblower gagged by govt shock. Not the first time it's happened is it? What about all the ex-EU whistleblowers who are supposedly protected once they reveal corruption secrets who have been subject to campaigns of intimidation, harrassment and defamation campaigns?

What's really funny is the quote from the mother of a firefighter at 9/11 - she should be pressing for an inquiry into why Giuliani took LOTS of campaign money from Motorola and gave the NYFD a comms system that didn't work properly inside buildings, and was repeatedly told this by the NYFD? Or is that not sexy enough?

Her work is a remarkable treatment of the corruption of both the War On Drugs, arms trade etc - but outside of the naming names, is it really any more than Mark Thomas exploding the Export Credit Guarantees scam?

Or are you making the implication that 'If X happens here than Y must have happened here'?
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
You really haven't got a fucking clue.

Mindboggling debating technique that.

And amazingly your judgment of me appears to more accurately reflect upon yourself. Funny that.
 
WouldBe said:
If I were to mention 'bomb plot' on this thread it may be picked up by an automated intelligence system. This would result in 33,500 (number of time this thread has been viewed) flags on the system all of which need to be followed up by some agency. This all takes time. Of course this thread will already have been picked up by the mention of explosives and WTC in close proximity, as will all the other threads on this and other boards.

This is not intelligence.

The intelligence i've been referring to has specific agencies from specific countries, giving over specific information. Instead of coming up with your inaccurate metaphors and analogies, just go read about the kind of stuff that the yanks ignored, or were too incapable of responding to.

You seem to live up to your name too much.
 
fela fan said:
read about the kind of stuff that the yanks ignored
This is the whole crux of the argument you blithering idiot.

Yes they had intelligence, yes they ignored it. This is what needs investigating, not clueless paranoid conspiracy bullshit.
 
fela fan said:
This is not intelligence.

The intelligence i've been referring to has specific agencies from specific countries, giving over specific information. Instead of coming up with your inaccurate metaphors and analogies, just go read about the kind of stuff that the yanks ignored, or were too incapable of responding to.

You seem to live up to your name too much.

Never attribute to malice what can adequately be explained by incompetence.

It's easy to say with hindsight, "they should have listened to this" or "this should have raised a flag" but simply put there was too much intelligence going around, there weren't clear channels of communication, the FBI weren't effectively using e-mail as a form of communication, christ the CIA's and FBI's communication systems weren't even capable of cross communication.

It's bloody easy to look in the aftermath of this fiasco, and cherrypick what they should have looked at, and what they should have ignored.

Epimetheus is Fela Fan's new nickname I think.
 
8den and other are right. As far as we know, the intelligence agencies are awash with threat assessments, potential plots, targets, and a "watched" list as long as your arm. Perhaps they did know an attack was coming, but did they know enough specific information to close this one down? What other valid threats had greater priority. And so on.
 
TheArchitect said:
8den and other are right. As far as we know, the intelligence agencies are awash with threat assessments, potential plots, targets, and a "watched" list as long as your arm. Perhaps they did know an attack was coming, but did they know enough specific information to close this one down? What other valid threats had greater priority. And so on.

I think you are making a serious mistake.

You're taking Fela Fan seriously!
 
TheArchitect said:
8den and other are right. As far as we know, the intelligence agencies are awash with threat assessments, potential plots, targets, and a "watched" list as long as your arm. Perhaps they did know an attack was coming, but did they know enough specific information to close this one down? What other valid threats had greater priority. And so on.

Perhaps. I think this is why a proper inquiry and independent report is needed.
 
beesonthewhatnow said:
This is the whole crux of the argument you blithering idiot.

Yes they had intelligence, yes they ignored it. This is what needs investigating, not clueless paranoid conspiracy bullshit.

Well, that just about fits in with what i've been calling for for a few years round these parts.

Now just why do you suppose they ignored it? You're not going to say they had too much of it and suffered from intelligence-fatigue are you?
 
8den said:
It's easy to say with hindsight, "they should have listened to this" or "this should have raised a flag" but simply put there was too much intelligence going around, there weren't clear channels of communication, the FBI weren't effectively using e-mail as a form of communication, christ the CIA's and FBI's communication systems weren't even capable of cross communication.

Too much intelligence going round!! It's funny watching people effectively making excuses for those that fail miserably in their jobs.

From your comments i'm guessing you've not read any of this intelligence that made its way to the US.

How do you know the FBI weren't 'effectively' (whatever this means, i mean, were they or weren't they?) using email?

And how do you know there weren't clear channels of communication going on? And for how long was this state of affairs going on?

It's plainly clear you're unable to open your mind to ideas outside of your dogmatic boundaries. If you are being told you are going to be attacked by planes, on tall buildings, coming soon, why would you ignore this?
 
Everyone in the UK knew that a terrorist attack was going to happen, but that didn't stop 7/7 happening, fool.

Or are you going to claim - like the fucking idiots on those moronic sites and our very own clueless Jazzz - that it was all an evil black op or an inside job with poor l'il 'patsies' being duped into lugging backpacks full of explosives around London?
 
fela fan said:
If you are being told you are going to be attacked by planes, on tall buildings, coming soon, why would you ignore this?
Any ideas how many tall building there are in the US or how many aircraft?

Yet somehow you expect the intelligence agencies to pinpoint exactly which buildings with which planes on which particular date. :D

The pentagon at 77ft high isn't exactly a tall building. :D
 
fela fan said:
Too much intelligence going round!! It's funny watching people effectively making excuses for those that fail miserably in their jobs.

Yes it was a failure. Thank you for admiting that it was a cock up not an intential failure.

From your comments i'm guessing you've not read any of this intelligence that made its way to the US.

Irony is once again your strong suite
That's a dogmatic stance to take.

Betrays a person who has fixed ideas and is not open to change.

You've made an assumption, that I knew or haven't read anything about the US's intelligence failures, you're wrong, and now I'm going to prove it.

I made several specific claims about intelligence cock ups, and now I'm going to do something called supporting my position. Its something you've seen other people do before.

How do you know the FBI weren't 'effectively' (whatever this means, i mean, were they or weren't they?) using email?

From here;

U.S. News & World Report wrote this "Before the September 11th attacks FBI agents were still using old `386' and `486' computers and had no Internet access or FBI e-mail. After the attacks, FBI headquarters staff had to send photographs of the 19 hijackers to the 56 field offices by FedEx because they lacked scanners. `Top managers, including [former director] Louis Freeh, didn't use computers and weren't chagrinned about it,' says the Justice Department's inspector general, Glenn Fine."

Taken from here


And how do you know there weren't clear channels of communication going on? And for how long was this state of affairs going on?

The Justice Department's Office of Inspector General, in the 371-page report, documented "at least five opportunities" for the FBI to have learned about the presence in the U.S. of Khalid al-Mihdhar and Nawaf al-Hazmi "that could have led to an earlier investigation." The two al Qaeda terrorists helped commandeer American Airlines Flight 77 that crashed into the Pentagon.
The unclassified but redacted report also said the "limited information" that was given by the CIA to the FBI never was documented by the bureau or placed in any system from which it could be retrieved by agents investigating terrorist threats. It said FBI supervisors lacked adequate oversight of agents assigned to work with the CIA and failed to give counterterrorism investigations priority.

From here

It's plainly clear you're unable to open your mind to ideas outside of your dogmatic boundaries. If you are being told you are going to be attacked by planes, on tall buildings, coming soon, why would you ignore this?

No Fela the fact of the matter is, you're presenting an "argumentum ad ignorantiam" You're clueless of the facts of the matter, and presume those to whom you speak to are also suffering the same handicap. We're not. I've read and watched a great deal of information about 911, and base my arguments on what occured before, during and after that day, on that information. You're huffing and puffing a load of hot air, and arrogantly presuming those you speak to are doing the same.
 
A) Giuliani told Jennings, "I--I went down to the scene and we set up headquarters at 75 Barkley Street, which was right there with the police commissioner, the fire commissioner, the head of emergency management, and we were operating out of there when we were told that the World Trade Center was going to collapse." Sept 11, 2001



B) Giuliani replied by saying, "I didn't realize the towers would collapse." He later added, "No one that I know of had any idea they would implode. That was a complete surprise." May 29, 2007
http://video.wnbc.com/player/?id=112179


The reporter who got arrested ( http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/june2007/060607criminalindictments.htm )
asked about who told Giuliani that the WTC is going to collapse.
What is the truth ? Giuliani said both of the things above.
He said he was with the police commissioner, the fire commissioner, and the head of emergency management, and he himself was the mayor.
Then who was that one that knew more than these people did ?
Why is it hard to answer ?
 
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